A Special custom Grado Labs EPOCH phono cartridge IN MONO is here. What albums can be played on it?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Steve Hoffman, Aug 16, 2018.

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  1. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    A true magnetic mono cart would have only one coil internally and oriented to pick up only horizontal (lateral) groove moves, am I correct? And the stylus should have minimum vertical compliance, correct?
    Many "mono" carts at earthbound prices I see listed on the usual cartridge/stylus specialist sites have descriptions worded vaguely enough that they could be stereo carts summed to mono in the cart, and seem to come with a normal .7 stereo stylus mount, or sometimes a 1 mil stylus but still in a stereo cartridge mount.
    I have an original 1 mil mono stylus for Pickering V15, which fits my Stanton 500, and the stylus assembly has little vertical compliance. Playing a (worthless) stereo LP on it gives sound with minimal separation, maybe 10db by my guess by ear. Playing a true mono cut 1950s record, there is a difference to that 1 mil mono stylus sound versus the normal .7 summed to mono. But I can't really tell if the difference is due to the 1 mil vs .7 mil or the difference of vertical compliance, or both, or even which way is better. They just sound different.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  2. timztunz

    timztunz Audioista

    Location:
    Texas
    Thanks Steve. I get it. It's just a little frustrating that I've spent a lot of money to have a 2nd arm and dedicated mono cart and bought a healthy amount of remastered mono releases to find that they're best played back in stereo or a very inconvenient double y cable scenario.

    But on the other hand, the older stuff that I do have that is true mono cut is indeed amazing.
     
  3. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Try a modern cut on your mono arm. Might work well, might not, but try. Won't kill the record.
     
  4. timztunz

    timztunz Audioista

    Location:
    Texas
    My phono stage has two inputs so it's easy enough to compare mono cart to stereo cart. I've also ordered the double y doo-dads to do a test of mono cart to double y stereo cart. Good stuff! Thanks again.
     
  5. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Glad to help!
     
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  6. chacha

    chacha Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    mill valley CA USA
    About 12 years ago I went over a dealers home who had a Lyra mono cart on an LP12. He had a nice collection of 60’s UK 45s which we listened to. I’ve never heard a 45 sound like that since. They had a remarkable sense of cohesion and power like I’d never heard before. Unforgettable.
     
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  7. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Yowza. You definitely want to use that Mono Grado Epoch. It's going to be a ton of fun.
     
  8. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    I am intrigued.
    The best vinyl reproduction in reguard to realism surface noise is provided by MONO LP.
    Early TED HEATH SOME BUDDY HOLLY,
    MANTOVANI, NAT KING COLE
    Reign supreme
    Stereo variable. Not a disaster but somehow often lacklustre.
    So. Can Steve or anyone who regularly
    Plays momo reccomend a mono cartridge

    Budget flexible.
    Thsnks in advance
     
  9. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    Here's an excerpt from a review of the first 'true' mono cart I ever bought:

    helikon

    I had some kind of "mono" cart before this Helikon mono, I think it may have been a Shelter, but I later found out that it was an internally wired for mono cart. Really, I think people should avoid those, even if they look like a bargain. My experience was they did no better than a mono button or a double-y.

    Here's the excerpt:

    ...
    What I Heard

    Now finally, what did I hear?

    The first thing one notices about the Helikon Mono is the dramatically lower noise level. Is this more than the 3 dB one expects from a mono switch? I think so, but I have no measurements. Time and again, records I thought were trashed or nearly un-listenable became enjoyable with the Helikon Mono. The second thing one notices is how many clean mono LPs have no noise whatsoever. The third thing one notices is the incredibly large number of mono LPs that sound really good. After a while you begin to wonder if maybe your mental rating system for good-sounding LPs is weakening. Then you remember that most mono LPs were made with 1 microphone and tube electronics without processing. Maybe most of them should sound good.

    Not all LPs sounded good. In fact, just as with good stereo cartridges, a high quality mono cartridge seems to expand the differences between good and bad LPs, and I found some real stinkers. Also, most of the LPs sourced from 78s didn't benefit that much from the Helikon. Of course, a lot of the noise on these LPs is really part of the recording. For instance, I have several copies of the 1937 "Sing, Sing, Sing" with Benny Goodman. The best is the 1950 box with Columbia pastel green label. The red six-eye is much cleaner but much less dynamic. Anyway, the Helikon mono didn't do much to the noise level of the green label version, which suggests to me that the noise is in the source and to take it out you have to process the music.

    ...

    Beyond what this reviewer said, I can say in my experience that some good mono recordings reveal sound quality I never knew was there. On some recordings, the vocal seemed to 'lift' up and off the background instruments in such a way that, with your eyes closed, you could visualise the singers head in front of you as the voice pitched forward and center from the speakers. Don't mean for that to sound creepy -- it's very cool.
     
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  10. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Go for a Miyajima, ideally a Zero, but lower down the range depending on budget and quantity of mono LPs, they are true mono designs in every way, the only possible drawback is you need a high mass arm, if you do want to take the plunge speak to Hugo at Ammonite for excellent service and a good deal: Home - New - Ammonite Audio
     
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  11. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    I love my Kleos Mono:

    Lyra AnalogLyra Kleos Mono MC Phono Cartridge | Analog LP + MC Cartridge

    Here's UK Lyra distributor:

    Symmetry - a new name for high end audio products

    And some text from Lyra on the Kleos Mono:

    "On mono records, the vertical axis of the groove contains no musical information, but it will frequently have noise, in the form of groove damage and dirt. The Kleos Mono has therefore been designed to be completely insensitive to the vertical axis, which greatly improves the signal/noise ratio without any downside on monaural records. The coil former is a square permeable plate oriented parallel to the record surface rather than the 45-degree angle used for most stereo cartridges, while the coils are wound so that they only generate a signal when there is horizontal movement of the stylus and cantilever when tracking a record. Two totally separate monaural coils are used in the Kleos Mono, since most monaural cartridges are used with stereo amplifiers and stereo speakers. The separate coils also help avoid possible ground loops and hum problems that could otherwise be caused if a single coil is fed into a stereo two-channel amplification system, thereby tying the two channels together electrically."
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
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  12. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Thank you E/Rampo.
    It sounds so simple ,the technical info
    And makes complete sense.
    I am lookong into it.
    Thank you.
     
  13. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    So the Lyra isn't a true mono design then.

    "What Makes Miyajima Mono Cartridges Special?
    Miyajima mono cartridges are true mono designs, which means they have only one coil that operates in the lateral plane only. They have no vertical compliance and cannot therefore be used to play stereo records (to do so will cause damage to a stereo groove). Asking the stylus to do only one thing, eg wiggle from side to side, means that it is totally insensitive to vertical movement in the groove, and that manifests as very low groove noise, as well as very faithful tracking of the groove modulations. Most mono cartridges are actually modified stereo designs that have some vertical compliance, and which will pick up vertical groove modulations which are almost certainly noise, dust, damage etc, so in reality a compromise but still probably better than playing a mono LP with a stereo cartridge. Miyajima mono cartridges don’t have any such compromises and are characterised by very low distortion and very low surface noise, whether we are talking about the entry level Kotetu mono or the truly astonishing Zero models."
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
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  14. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    Sure it is. It just forgoes old ('classic' if you will) design in favour of one that can play mono presses that were cut after 1968 and not mess them up, which the Miyajima blurb makes clear where it reads "They have no vertical compliance and cannot therefore be used to play stereo records (to do so will cause damage to a stereo groove)." I could be wrong, but I'd worry that same damage could occur on a mono record cut after 1968.

    Read the Lyra descrip again: "...the coils are wound so that they only generate a signal when there is horizontal movement of the stylus and cantilever when tracking a record." It only generates a signal from horizontal stylus movement. That's mono, whether or not one wants to play the 'true' card vis-a-vis being "totally insensitive to vertical movement in the groove", which, frankly I find a straw man when the goal is a cart that produces "...very low groove noise, as well as very faithful tracking of the groove modulations." I'd put my Lyra mono in to compete with any similarly priced mono model and be willing to bet the only sonic differences detectable would be ones of flavour, not performance, and I very highly doubt there would be appreciable differences in reducing groove noise. That's one of the first things that impressed me about my Lyra and it impressed me hugely.


    What this descrip calls a compromise I call an asset, but everyone has different wants in terms of features and someone that has an exclusive collection of very early mono LPs ('40s and '50s) might understandably be swayed toward this. I have both 50s and 60s monos as well as later '70s and '80s mono reissues that will have certainly been produced with stereo cutting heads. With my Lyra Kleos Mono, I don't have to worry about f'ing them up nor do I have to race back to the turntable if I accidentally put a stereo record on when the mono cart is mounted.

    I'm sure those Miyajimas sound nice. They certainly get nice reviews. I'd love to hear one. The VTF they require scares me though. 3 to 5 grams would make me a bit paranoid.

    YMMV.
     
  15. Jtycho

    Jtycho Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    3 to 5 grams is nothing to be concerned with. I'm running the new Miyajima Zero Infinity. Truly an exceptional cartridge.
     
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  16. chacha

    chacha Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    mill valley CA USA
    That was my experience when I heard the Helikon as well as mentioned upthread. There was a rightness about the sound of a mono record played through it that a mono sum button can’t replicate.
     
  17. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    I came very close to buying a lower end Lyra mono so I'm definitely not knocking them for their performance, I just ended up going for a more traditional mono, my LPs are mainly '50's/'60s and the mono is on a dedicated deck, although I get your concern about putting the Miyajima down on a stereo record:yikes: I'd also love to compare the Lyra Kleos against the Miyajima Zero, even if it does cost twice as much, I wouldn't mind the Grado thrown into the mix as well.
     
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  18. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    I´d guess a cartridge with no vertical compliance would be slightly quieter with less phase anomalies. I don´t have one so I haven´t really tested; but technically it should. On the other hand there will always be some vertical components, so a cartridge with vertical compliance will be more kind to the grooves.
     
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    It's coming along!

    The foremost expert in cartridge and vertical tracking angle setup (VTA) Mr. David Shreve is kindly installing and setting up the Grado Labs MONO Epoch cartridge on the second tonearm of The VPI Industries “Avenger “ turntable. The stereo version of the Epoch is on the other tonearm. Audio Note (UK) Ltd SOGON wire used on the VPI. Special custom 200 g counterweight kindly supplied by VPI for this heavy cartridge.

    dave shreve.jpg dave shreve two.jpg
     
  20. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    How does it differ from the other mono carts by Miayjima?
     
  21. chacha

    chacha Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    mill valley CA USA
    that's a serious looking table.
     
  22. Jtycho

    Jtycho Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Well it’s their heaviest cartridge so it needs the proper tonearm but beyond that I don’t know what makes it different internally. I previously had a Zero and this takes it up a notch or two.
     
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  23. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    Perhaps they're just trying to add mass to increase the cartridge's compatibility with lighter-weight tonearms? Dunno.
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Success! Beautiful mono sound. Thanks David Shreve, VPI and Grado Labs. Also thanks to Stuart Levitt for the scratch pad.
    Really, this thing sounds amazing. And VTA is important, even on a mono cart. Crucial, in fact.. stu.jpg stu 2.jpg
     
  25. dminches

    dminches Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    It has more to do with the compliance of the cartridge than the weight.
     
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