ABBA - Super Trouper Deluxe Edition coming May 2011

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by OberonOz, Feb 23, 2011.

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  1. Pizza

    Pizza With extra pepperoni

    Location:
    USA
    What are the opinions on the Japanese issues? I have the 30th Anniversary Original Album Box (not the CSR set that came out the following year) and the recent SHMs. How do these compare?
     
  2. KennyG

    KennyG Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ireland
    Both are clones of the 2001 remasters.
     
  3. KennyG

    KennyG Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ireland
    Yes. It represents the point where Universal embraced dynamics! It's the best CD edition although it is mastered with a little bit more compression than Super Trouper DE.
     
  4. OdoKosh

    OdoKosh New Member

    Location:
    England
    Listening to this CD now, fantastic sound! But, can anyone tell me what Beach Boys song On and On and On is reminding me of?
     
    driverdrummer likes this.
  5. Delius

    Delius Well-Known Member

    Location:
    London, UK
    It doesn't sound compressed to me at all - more like 2 or 3 db louder than needed. Also, the quieter and smoother tracks like The King... and I Have A Dream do not even peak at zero! :)
     
  6. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    Actually VV DE CD is 3 dB more compressed than the original Polydor CD, not just louder:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Analyzed: ABBA / Voulez-Vous
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    DR Peak RMS Duration Track
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR13 -1.48 dB -17.39 dB 3:25 01-As Good As New
    DR13 -1.80 dB -16.98 dB 5:08 02-Voulez-Vous
    DR13 -5.71 dB -22.23 dB 4:43 03-I Have A Dream
    DR13 -1.89 dB -17.09 dB 4:22 04-Angel Eyes
    DR13 -3.15 dB -18.86 dB 3:34 05-The King Has Lost His Crown
    DR13 -2.02 dB -16.89 dB 3:15 06-Does Your Mother Know
    DR13 -2.44 dB -17.26 dB 5:11 07-If It Wasn´T For The Nights
    DR13 -1.83 dB -18.71 dB 5:26 08-Chiquitita
    DR14 -2.08 dB -18.00 dB 3:30 09-Lovers (Live A Little Longer)
    DR13 -2.19 dB -18.95 dB 3:17 10-Kisses Of Fire
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number of tracks: 10
    Maximum peak difference (-1.48 dB - -5.71 dB): 4.23 dB

    Official DR value (Song Mode): DR13
    ================================================================================

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Analyzed: ABBA / Voulez-Vous (2010 Deluxe Edition)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    DR Peak RMS Duration Track
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR11 -0.12 dB -13.15 dB 3:23 01-As Good As New
    DR9 -0.10 dB -10.45 dB 5:08 02-Voulez-Vous
    DR12 -0.13 dB -14.52 dB 4:44 03-I Have A Dream
    DR10 -0.20 dB -11.47 dB 4:22 04-Angeleyes
    DR9 -0.10 dB -12.27 dB 3:34 05-The King Has Lost His Crown
    DR9 -0.20 dB -11.35 dB 3:15 06-Does Your Mother Know
    DR10 -0.15 dB -11.95 dB 5:10 07-If It Wasn't For The Nights
    DR10 -0.70 dB -13.91 dB 5:26 08-Chiquitita
    DR10 -0.20 dB -11.90 dB 3:30 09-Lovers (Live A Little Longer)
    DR10 -0.20 dB -13.01 dB 3:23 10-Kisses Of Fire
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number of tracks: 10
    Maximum peak difference (-0.10 dB - -0.70 dB): 0.60 dB

    Official DR value (Song Mode): DR10
    ================================================================================
     
  7. Pizza

    Pizza With extra pepperoni

    Location:
    USA
    Thanks for the info. Too bad. I was hoping maybe they were from another source.
     
  8. Ricko

    Ricko Forum Resident

    While VV DE is more compressed than the Polydor, it's judicious compression because it creates a much-improved dynamic range. Much of the peaks in the original Abba CDs were high-end stuff like hi-hat, and that needs to be compressed for the tougher sound that makes the VV DE sound so good. Apart from that it's for the most part a disco album, and disco should be compressed and limited.

    A quick comparison between the original and DE versions of say "Does Your Mother Know" articulates the difference between saxes that sound like a kazoo, and saxes that actually sound like saxes. :)
     
  9. Mike the Fish

    Mike the Fish Señor Member

    Location:
    England
    Do It Again - ?
     
  10. dphilippov

    dphilippov Forum Resident

    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    Grabbed the DE of Voulez-Vous yesterday. Sounds great indeed. And to have both the full-length Summer Night City and Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! as bonus tracks to my favourite ABBA album... pure bliss:angel:
     
  11. qrarolu

    qrarolu Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Just a thought, do you think the result would have been better if they had compressed the high-end stuff like hi-hat separately in the mixing stage instead of doing it when mastering the recording?
     
  12. Ricko

    Ricko Forum Resident

    Funny you mention that grarolu...same thing crossed my mind when I was writing about it. (Also the DE Super Trouper has pulled a lot of that annoying hi-hat off "Winner Takes It All" and the whole track now sounds astonishly good)

    Remember B & B were recording, mixing and mastering in analog, in order to get the best sound from vinyl. An analog mix on a disco-ish pair of LPs needs some hi-hat whoosh, and it certainly disguises a lot of inherent tape noise from multiple overdubs. But the LP format inhibits just how much compression you can add. So - given the genre and the technology of the times - I'd say they mixed the best master they possibly could for vinyl reproduction. I doubt that a remix is justified.

    Long-story-short is that a digital remaster should not be just a clean transfer of the LP master when it involves significant overdubs to create an actual integrated sound. IMO it should be a vast improvement which reflects advanced technology. By the time the eighties came Bjorn & Benny were making excellent records, and when I hear how good Super Trouper DE sounds it just makes me realize they were making better records than the old technology could reproduce.

    In the end it all comes down to the skills, taste and ears of the remasterer. In this instance somebody knows exactly what they're doing because this is 21st century audiophile Abba: it's a vast improvement on anything that could have come from vinyl. :)
     
  13. Barry Vaughan

    Barry Vaughan Active Member

    Location:
    Edinburgh
    Yes, I agree. The CD format takes a lot of bashing, here and elsewhere, but this DE is a reminder of how fantastic a plain old 16/44 CD can sound when done right.
     
  14. PanaPlasma

    PanaPlasma Forum Resident

    Location:
    Belgium, Europe
    I see CD Japan anounced a new version of ABBA Gold (available from June/July) including 2010 remaster.

    Will this be a new remaster. Will it be brickwalled, or will sound like the new Deluxe Editions?

    I didn't like any of the "Gold"-compilations sonically. Not the original cd, none of the later reissues/remasters or japan shm-cd.
     
  15. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    Sorry, but this statement makes no sense to me... I'm also surprised that you're not complaining about the 'lack' of compression applied to Super Trouper DE, as we all know ST DE CD has more master tape dynamics preserved than VV DE ;)

    http://dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=9107
     
  16. Hootenannysinger

    Hootenannysinger Member

    Location:
    Sweden
    I think it's obvius that VV DE sounds better in terms of details, clarity and that it is a modern transfer from the mixdown tapes BUT it lacks a bit punch compared to the original cd. I don't think that must have anything to do with the compressed high-hats, rather it's the so hateful but common "normal" compression.
     
  17. OdoKosh

    OdoKosh New Member

    Location:
    England
    YES! thank you!
     
  18. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    What is up with the video on the ST DE DVD? What dumba$$ decided to encode 4:3 OAR material in anamorphic 4:3 format (1.78:1 AR) and include the black pillar boxes in the video, thus reducing horizontal video resolution by 33% in the process??? Not to mention the remastered promo clip of Happy New Year color timing screw-up... This has got to be the worst ABBA Deluxe Edition video-wise! Previous 3 DE DVDs were excellent :( Someone at Filmtech/Polar/Universal messed up big time!
     
  19. Ricko

    Ricko Forum Resident

    Oops...that should have read "...because it creates an apparent much-improved dynamic range". Isn't that the whole point of compression...to apparently improve the dynamic range? An impressive dynamic range on tape doesn't necessarily translate into a great sound, or the sound that would have been deemed optimal by the original producers.

    Well if that's how you're hearing VV DE then I guess that's what you're hearing. According to my idea of "punch" it has decidedly more punch lol!

    Yes indeed. I'm glad I didn't buy it for the DVD. It's all awful dreck from the vaults. But I coudn't stand looking at them then, and I can't stand looking at them now so it's no great loss. :D
     
  20. lv70smusic

    lv70smusic Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    When compression is used on individual elements during mixing, I agree that it can improve the sense of dynamic range. When compression is used on the entire track during mastering, there is no way for that to improve the dynamic range since, by it's very nature, it serves to decrease the dynamic range so the overall perceived volume is higher. At least that's my layman's understanding of it all.

     
  21. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    I'm happy with the sources Universal used for the new ST DE CD, they appear to be in nice shape. However, I don't think there was any need to apply additional compression to the tracks during mastering. They could have sounded even livelier with another 2-3dB of dynamics (DR+) left intact IMO. The 1st 2 tracks of the ST DE album are 5.5dB (!) louder than on Polydor CD, that is just too much for me...
     
  22. Ricko

    Ricko Forum Resident

    I learned about compression from an audiologist who sets up individuals' data for the manufacture of hi-end hearing aids: basically you measure what an individual can't hear across the entire sound spectrum, and use compression accordingly so that lost parts of their hearing can be "restored". The sonic inter-relationships are complex - even on a graph chart. A high quality hearing aid is not a simple across-the-boards amplifier, and nor should music compression be used to create just loudness.

    Think of compression visually, as in a cityscape. Some buildings are more noticeable because they're taller, or more in the foreground. The goal of well-applied compression is to simply aurally draw attention to what needs attention by limiting the obviously intrusive. Mathematically I guess it's best described as relative ratios.

    Settings - and different types of compression - are many and varied, as are the attack and release times. eg some subtle companding in the right frequencies and done judiciously really will enhance parts of an orchestra/soundfield. It's expertly applied compression that's causing so many of us to "hear" new instruments and things in the ST DE. (De-essing is another form of compression - sometimes you must do that for sibilance say, or the master will fry a cutting head. )

    Compression in itself isn't a bad thing: it's when some fool just gates the whole track that you have total noise, severe limiting and a brickwall. This is what gives compression a bad name because any sense of dynamic range is destroyed. And they often do it to disguise poorly-executed noise removal.

    As for compression on individual track vs finished mix that's a case by case deal: apparently light compression on one analog track can cause problems for the final mix, but it's not so problematic mixing digital. :)
     
  23. aarsonbet

    aarsonbet Forum Resident

    Funny that you say that, as I just received my copy, and didn't find the sound to be over-compressed in the least. This remaster is certainly no victim of the loudness war.

    I've not had the opportunity to spend a great deal of time listening to the disc at home. However, some preliminary observations:

    When I popped in the CD in my home system, I was pleasantly surprised to hear a rather expansive soundstage and level of detail. However, I did find (on first listen only) that the top end was a bit dull. Now, this was a perception attained whilst standing and moving about the apartment. Later, when I was listening to it in the car, everything seemed very balanced, if ever so tilted to the "plush" side of EQ. It wasn't overly loud, there were some nice dynamics, and there were numerous details that I'd not heard before in any incarnation of the album. With regards to compression and/or limiting, I didn't hear any, or at least not an undue amount.

    Initial impressions? For casual listening, I might stick to my US 1995 Polydor CD, as it has a wee bit more top end. I don't have the Atlantic, so I can't do a comparison there. However, for in-depth listening, this might have become my go-to copy. I'll post some more thoughts once I've had some time to really sit with the disc.
     
  24. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    I'd suggest that people carefully adjust the playback volume while comparing different masterings of the album to make sure perceived loudness of the material is the same (ReplayGain enabled player a la Foobar2000 can help). Here are the dynamic ranges of the original Polydor & new Deluxe Edition CDs of Super Trouper:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Analyzed: ABBA / Super Trouper
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    DR Peak RMS Duration Track
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR14 -0.46 dB -17.28 dB 4:11 01-Super Trouper
    DR14 -1.57 dB -19.34 dB 4:55 02-The Winner Takes It All
    DR14 -0.10 dB -17.37 dB 3:40 03-On And On And On
    DR13 -2.15 dB -18.74 dB 4:39 04-Andante, Andante
    DR14 -0.63 dB -17.07 dB 4:55 05-Me And I
    DR13 -1.70 dB -18.80 dB 4:23 06-Happy New Year
    DR12 -1.67 dB -16.69 dB 4:19 07-Our Last Summer
    DR12 -2.64 dB -16.77 dB 3:26 08-The Piper
    DR13 -1.28 dB -17.06 dB 4:35 09-Lay All Your Love On Me
    DR11 -2.66 dB -18.49 dB 2:57 10-The Way Old Friends Do
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number of tracks: 10
    Maximum peak difference (-0.10 dB - -2.66 dB): 2.56 dB

    Official DR value (Song Mode): DR13
    ================================================================================

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Analyzed: ABBA / Super Trouper (2011 Deluxe Edition)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    DR Peak RMS Duration Track
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR11 -0.12 dB -12.52 dB 4:13 01-Super Trouper
    DR10 -0.12 dB -13.94 dB 4:57 02-The Winner Takes It All
    DR11 -0.12 dB -13.58 dB 3:42 03-On And On And On
    DR12 -0.12 dB -14.45 dB 4:40 04-Andante, Andante
    DR12 0.00 dB -13.36 dB 4:56 05-Me And I
    DR11 -0.12 dB -14.83 dB 4:24 06-Happy New Year
    DR10 -0.12 dB -12.24 dB 4:20 07-Our Last Summer
    DR11 -0.12 dB -12.44 dB 3:27 08-The Piper
    DR11 -0.12 dB -12.62 dB 4:35 09-Lay All Your Love On Me
    DR11 -0.30 dB -14.35 dB 3:00 10-The Way Old Friends Do
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number of tracks: 10
    Maximum peak difference (0.00 dB - -0.30 dB): 0.30 dB
    Album Totals:

    Left Right

    Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB
    Avg RMS: -12.88 dB --- -13.83 dB
    DR channel: 10.45 dB --- 11.25 dB
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Official DR value (Album Mode): 11
    ================================================================================

    As you can see the dynamics of the 1st 2 tracks were compromised the most in the new ST DE version. I'd rather hear the original dynamics preserved, but it's not to be, oh well... :(
     
  25. newstarter11

    newstarter11 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    finally got the super toruper deluxe. magnificent!

    worst bit: NEW dropout at 3:05 in andante, andante (english version). noticeable in headphones, but kennyg said it's probably the age of the tapes.

    our last summer, the piper, me & i, happy new year just shimmer.

    the winner takes it all is a revelation.

    elaine is finally crisp without being bright.

    least bright version of lay all your love on me, drums have PUNCH, individual vocal parts in choir chorus are MUCH clearer!
    the cross-fade to the way old friends do is quite late and not the same as the lp- so maybe it's the mixdown? regardless, now i can just re-edit it to make my own clean outro version!
     
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