ABBA The Visitors Deluxe Edition Released in April 2012

now i'm really confused. so many ppl on this forum and others love the 2012 remaster, but many others on this forum and others can't stand it! i'll have to listen to it myself lol!

to sidetrack for a bit, for example, i've just compared the title track off "super trouper":
-the version on the "the singles- the first ten years" cd sounds very nice. probably the best along with the 1985 atlantic.
-the number ones dvd version (probably the only lossless version on dvd out there) is a bit compressed, but sounds quite similar. i checked the waveform and it's NOT as compressed as the 2005 remasters. sounds nothing like abba gold (1992, 1999, 2005 or 2008 versions) or the 2001 remaster of super trouper (also on "the definitive collection"). still nice. bass isn't overpowering.
-the 2011 remaster sounds compressed and too bassy by comparison, but on its own still sounds good.

this was a bit of a revelation- our personal tastes can change. all i'm certain of now is that:
-the 1997/1999/2001 remasters have awful noise reduction that i can now hear from a mile away
-the 2005/2008 remasters are too loud
-the "arrival" 2006 remaster is too loud
-"the album" 2007 remaster is too loud
-"voulez vous" 2010 is a bit compressed, but less than ever before since the 80s
-"super trouper" 2011 is less compressed
-"the visitors" 2012 seems to have little, if any compression, based on DR levels and waveform scans

thanks to those for correcting my inaccurate statement that 2012 version of "head over heels" is the original vinyl mix- it's only the original vinyl mix in SOME territories like east germany, etc.

 

I'd be VERY careful in assuming that you can trace compression via waveforms and DR levels on a finished master. There's absolutely no such thing as one standard form of compression: the degrees and ranges of compression adjustment are almost infinite.

 

Well it could have been done via mp3 and/or through less reputable routes. I was surprised by your assessment.

 

Huh? The DR level drop will give you the exact amount of additional compression (or dynamic range reduction, whichever you prefer) applied to one mastering compared to the other.

 

Indeed it will. If it's exactly the same mixed tape. I highly doubt the DL version is simply a tweaked version of the old tape being used here as a reference.

If compression is applied to any elements of the multis prior to mixdown the subject of DR will be quite irrelevant when compared to another mixdown. Much the same can be said of Dynamic Range Expansion, or any of the processes used from the panopoly of choices engineers can make in working with dynamics generally.

Now since we know "The Visitors" is a mixture of of analog recordings and digital-to-analog recordings - and we don't know at what mixdown stage this remastering has it's origins - it's probably reasonable to say that some aspects of what's ended up as the master has been altered dynamically. As pure direct sound through a Yamaha amp the drums are consisently thunderous and the highs are ear-bleeding.

This is a master which has some characteristics of vinyl warmth (as reproduced on CD) but you'd never know it because necessary EQing on the highs has not been performed.

 

Just out of interest Ricko - how does the Deluxe edition compare to the Polydor CD, 2001 and 2005 remasters? What is your opinion?

RUdolf

 

Hi all

Here is my review of The Visitors deluxe edition. I first published it on the abab4ever forum here - http://www.iphpbb.com/board/viewtopic.php?nxu=30652567nx61610&p=521536#521536

However, I have learnt since then that the original 1981 Swedish LP pressing has the standard mix of Head Over Heels. I only heard the 2010 The Vinyls pressing of The Visitors, and I assumed that they were based on the original 1981 Swedish LP cutting tapes. This appears to be incorrect. I suspect that in 2010 they pulled out the wrong/different LP cutters for The Visitors, and used them again for the 2012 Deluxe edition. This wrong/different LP cutter has the alternative mix of Head Over Heels, whereas the original LP cutter has the standard mix. For some reason these 2010 LP cutters sound more compressed and more duller when compared to the 1982 Polydor (which used the West German LP cutter). With all that in mind, here is the review I posted originally -

ABBA The Visitors Deluxe Edition 2012
Review by Rudolf Ondrich
29/04/2012

The greatest ABBA album (well to me anyway) has finally been given the Deluxe treatment. Late ABBA has a special place in my heart, it has such emotion. Indeed, the late output of many artists (Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Bruckner etc) sounds so wonderful to me. It’s like they realize that they cannot write music forever, that their time is nearly up, and so they go into emotional hyperdrive. The result of this is music that touches me in ways that I cannot describe. The Day Before You Came is by far the saddest song I know within the pop repertoire. Beethoven’s late Piano Sonatas makes me want to cry. Such emotion when I listen to the late period of many artists and composers.

There have been quite a few distinct CD masterings of The Visitors album. The first one came in 1982, when Polydor in West Germany released it on CD (While I haven’t heard the pre-1997 Japanese CD pressings of The Visitors, they should sound very close to the West German Polydor). This was the standard version until 1997, when the first Astley remaster came. In 2001 the 1997 mastering was slightly modified for the 2001 remasters. In 2005 a completely new remastering came out in the CSR box set. Now, in 2012, The Visitors deluxe edition has a brand new and distinct CD mastering.

There is no reason to dwell on the 1997, 2001 and 2005 remasters at length. As I have said before many times, these remaster are horrendous due to such things as noise reduction, dynamic range compression, and equalization changes. In fact, for The Visitors, I would go so far as to say that these three masterings are virtually unlistenable. So that’s them out of the way.

So my analysis will focus mainly on the 1982 Polydor edition, the 2012 Deluxe edition, and to some extent the 1992 – 1994 Thank You For The Music remasters done by Tretow (where applicable)

It is also important to note that comparing different masterings is an inherently subjective process. There is no “right” or “wrong” answer. What I hope to achieve by doing this is to make you think critically about the ABBA remasters, and with that critical thinking you can make your own informed opinion.

The 2012 Deluxe edition has an incredible dynamic range for a modern pop CD release. I am in awe thinking about how quickly things have changed since 2005. The 2005 remaster is maxed out, has very little dynamic range, and sounds awful and fatiguing. Compare it to this 2012 remastering, where the dynamic range is quite large, is almost like a revelation. Is this the end of the Loudness War? I genuinely hope so.

Having said that, my impression of the Deluxe edition is underwhelming at best. More so, while it is the superior to the 2001 and the 2005, it is noticeably inferior to the original 1982 West German Polydor CD version.

I will make a few general comments before I move onto a track my track description.

The Deluxe edition has a duller equalization when compared to the 1982 Polydor. It is also a bit more compressed sounding. An audiophile friend from New Zealand, after listening to The Visitors deluxe, suspected that they added compression to the audio and then lowered the overall volume! Such a remastering process is so stupid and pointless that I don’t think it happened (well perhaps it could have happened, and if it did, it is by far the most stupid thing to have happened in the creation of any CD). More likely is that the original Swedish LP cutting tape is more compressed when compared to the more dynamic West German LP cutting tape. The equalization is duller too. The side B tracks in particular (from I Let The Music Speak to Like An Angel Passing Through My Room) sound consistently duller when compared to the 1982 Polydor CD. Perhaps the Swedish Side B LP cutting tape was made using more duller equalization settings?

Just as a side for people who might not understand – when LPs are made, the audio is sourced from LP cutting tapes. Two LP cutting tapes were made for each album, one for Side A and another for Side B. They would get the two track stereo mixdown (each track has a separate mixdown tape), and record them onto one tape. Usually too they would re-equalize the audio and compress it slightly to fit better on the LP format. Polar would have made many LP cutting tapes and sent them around the world, so it is possible that the West German LP cutting tape (what the 1982 Polydor CD is based on) is different to the Swedish LP cutting tape (what the Deluxe edition is based on), having less compression and a more brighter and cleaner equalization. The 2001 remaster of The Visitors has a picture of the LP cutting tapes. It describes them as being “the original The Visitors master tapes.” This is not correct. The original master tapes are the stereo mixdown tapes. LP cutting tapes are a generation higher copy than the original stereo mixdown master tapes.

So here is a track by track analysis with a recommendation of the best version.

1. The Visitors – 1982 West German Polydor CD version

You can hear the added compression on the Deluxe edition during the chorus and especially during the instrumental section after the chorus is sung and before the 2nd verse. The 1994 Thank You For The Music remaster of this track also sounds a bit compressed. I get the impression that perhaps the Swedish LP tape has more compression than the West German LP tape, as the Polydor CD has a more dynamic version of this track.

2. Head Over Heels - 1982 West German Polydor CD version for the standard mix, 2012 Deluxe edition for the alternative mix.

For some reason, the Deluxe edition CD has an alternate mix of this track. From what I was told, this mix was first heard on the East German single of Head Over Heels way back in 1982 or so. It has resurfaced on the 2010 “The Vinyls” collection and now appears on the Deluxe edition, making the Deluxe edition the only known CD outing of this alternative mix. A message from Carl Magnus Palm suggested that the differences between this and the standard mix are due to a more dynamic mastering of the Deluxe edition. This is simply incorrect. The 1982 Polydor CD has an even greater dynamic mastering than the Deluxe, and yet it is very much clearly the standard mix. Apart from the 1st chorus, both mixes are identical to each other. Both the Polydor and Deluxe sound virtually the same in terms of their mastering of this track, no real difference between the two.

3. When All Is Said And Done – 1982 West German Polydor CD

The Polydor has a slightly more dynamic version of this track. Nevertheless, the differences between the Polydor and Deluxe are not that great I think. The Polydor however sounds ever so slightly brighter and cleaner, so it gets my vote here.

4. Soldiers - 1982 West German Polydor CD

Like WAISAD, the differences between the Deluxe and Polydor are only minimal, with the Polydor again sounding ever so slightly brighter and cleaner.

5. I Let The Music Speak – 1982 West German Polydor CD version

This is the worst sounding track from the album proper (discounting bonus tracks) on the Deluxe edition. Like I mentioned before, the Side B tracks sound consistently duller on the Deluxe when compared to the 1982 Polydor. Here the Deluxe version is also riddled with dropouts and other blemishes not found on the 1982 Polydor. These include at 0:54, 1:22 to 1:23, 1:25, 1:26, 3:01, 3:03 to 3:06 (this one sounds quite awful). None of these dropouts are on the Polydor edition. Very strangely from about 1:42 the stereo image moves from the centre to the left, whereas the Polydor CD version has the stereo image placed firmly in the centre. Later on in the Deluxe it moves a little bit back to the centre, but it still keeps a bias towards the left channel. The Polydor version has a brighter and cleaner version of this track.

6. One Of Us – 1982 West German Polydor CD Version

The Polydor version has a brighter and cleaner version of this track.

7. Two For The Price Of One - West German Polydor CD Version.

The Polydor version has a brighter and cleaner version of this track.

8. Slipping Through My Fingers - West German Polydor CD Version

The Polydor version has a brighter and cleaner version of this track.

9. Like An Angel Passing Through My Room - West German Polydor CD Version

The Polydor version has a brighter and cleaner version of this track.

Now for the bonus tracks –

10. Should I Laugh Or Cry (count in version) – 2012 Deluxe edition

The only other CD outing of this count in version is on the 2005 CSR box set, which is badly compressed. The 2012 Deluxe version is much more dynamic. The fade out on the Deluxe edition is mangled however, sounding rather abrupt and not fading out cleanly.

11. I Am The City - 2012 Deluxe edition

This version does not have the dropout at 1:52 which is on every pre-2008 version of this track. The equalization also seems to be slightly better than the 1993 More ABBA Gold version, and the fadeout on the Deluxe version goes slightly longer too. The dynamics are also quite good.

12. You Owe Me One – 2012 Deluxe edition

The 1994 version is too bright, the Deluxe has a better equalization. Like I Am The City, the fadeout on the Deluxe edition goes slightly longer on the Deluxe version when compared to the 1994 version.

13. Cassandra – 1994 Thank You For The Music box set

The stereo image on the 2012 Deluxe edition is strange. Normally Frida’s vocal starts in the centre, whereas on the Deluxe it starts in the left channel and moves to the centre when the chorus comes along. The Deluxe edition also sounds muffled and blanketed. The 1994 TYFTM version, while slightly bright, is very clean and not muffled at all.

14. Under Attack – 1994 Thank You For The Music box set

The Deluxe version sounds rather compressed in the drums. This was confirmed to me when I saw the waveform and zoomed to see the drum transient (note – I never solely rely on waveforms, some people I know are obsessed by them. I was using them only to confirm my suspicions). The bass is also quite strong here, making the mix sound rather muffled. 1994 TYFTM version is bright, but more dynamic sounding.

15. The Day Before You Came – 1994 Thank You For The Music box set

Similar story as Under Attack, with compressed drums and excessive bass muffling the sound. There is also a dropout on the Deluxe edition at 1:45 Yes, the 1994 TYFTM version is a bit bright, but the drums are much less compressed sounding. Unfortunately, it fades out a bit earlier than the Deluxe version.

16. From a Twinkling Star to A Passing Angel (Demos) - 2012 Deluxe edition

A quite dynamic mastering. Out of all the tracks on the Deluxe, it sounds the least compressed. This is not too surprising, as while the other tracks came from compressed LP tapes, this one would have either come from mixdowns (as it was never released on LP, it is very unlikely that that they would have made an LP tape copy) or brand new stereo mixdowns made from the original multitrack tapes. The first demo with Bjorn singing reminds me of “Givin’ A Little Bit More,” both share a rather similar production, especially with the drum machine.

Overall, while the Deluxe edition smashes the 1997, 2001 and 2005 sonic disasters, it is unfortunately not as good as I would have liked it to have been. My own feeling is that they used compressed LP cutting tapes instead of using the superior stereo mixdown tapes. I also get the impression that, for some reason, the Swedish LP tapes are more compressed and duller than the West German LP tapes. This results in the original 1982 West German CD, which was made using West German LP cutting tapes, more dynamic, brighter and cleaner.

So, in order –

1. 1982 West German Polydor CD version. Clean and dynamic.
2. 2012 Deluxe edition. Slightly duller and more compressed sounding than the Polydor. It would sound much more dynamic if the original stereo mixdown tapes were used. Having said that it is still a relatively enjoyable mastering and far succeeds the general standard of poor quality modern Loudness War mastering.
3, 4, and 5 – 2005, 2001 and 1997. Please note that these editions are a very distant 3, 4 and 5!

Where to from now? It is obvious that Universal music are trying harder with the quality of the remasters. Both Voulez-Vous and Super Trouper Deluxe were great improvements over previous offerings. But even those editions, like this Deluxe edition of The Visitors, are not perfect. If I were an advisor to Universal Music, I would highly recommend that they get Steve Hoffman to do an ultimate “Complete Audiophile Remasters” box set. Hoffman is very well known in the audiophile community for his exceptionally good sounding remasters. He always seeks the original stereo mixdown tapes to work from (he avoids LP cutting tapes as much as possible), makes slight equalization changes if need be, and never adds any compression to the audio. The result is a very warm and rich sound, much like the most excellent 1988 Swedish Polar edition of ABBA (self titled). Maybe one day Hoffman will remaster the complete ABBA back catalogue. For me, this would be just as big as if Just Like That or other demos were to be released officially. One can only dream.

Rudolf Ondrich

 

Thanks for the review.

So the 1982 original CD is the way to go for the best sound and the 2012 is essential for the bonus tracks.

I am still waiting for shipment of the Deluxe edition. from sendit.com, I pre-ordered it from them over a month ago, so may cancel and order it elsewhere.

For some reason it is not available on HMV.com at the moment, it is now showing as "deleted" already???

 

Can someone supply the barcode number for the original 1982 West Germany CD please?

 

OK, I've done some googling, is this the correct number for the 1982 West German Polydor CD referred to in the review above?

042280001124

 

That is correct Lea. I have the same CD too.

 

Since some of you here and on the ABBA Forum are raving about the Polydor version... Does anyone know if the Japanese Polydor Visitors from 1981 is equal to the West-German one?
The one I have from Japan is: P33P 20059

/TS

 

Could you post up the peak levels using EAC?

BTW welcome to the forums

 

Here is the Made In Canada polygram-polydor/matrix-MFG By
CINRAM CD 422 800 011-2/UPC-0 42280 00112 4 97
Track 1 100
Track 2 86.3
Track 3 96
Track 4 97.1
Track 5 72.5
Track 6 96.6
Track 7 85.4
Track 8 63.7
Track 9 43.9
foobar2000 1.1.10 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2012-04-29 15:46:06

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: ABBA / The Visitors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR17 0.00 dB -20.88 dB 5:46 01-The Visitors
DR17 -1.28 dB -20.27 dB 3:48 02-Head Over Heels
DR16 -0.35 dB -19.01 dB 3:20 03-When All Is Said and Done
DR16 -0.25 dB -18.09 dB 4:41 04-Soldiers
DR13 -2.79 dB -20.06 dB 5:24 05-I Let the Music Speak
DR18 -0.29 dB -20.30 dB 3:57 06-One of Us
DR15 -1.36 dB -19.97 dB 3:38 07-Two for the Price of One
DR12 -3.90 dB -19.51 dB 3:54 08-Slipping Through My Fingers
DR14 -7.14 dB -26.49 dB 3:34 09-Like an Angel Passing Through My Room
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 9
Official DR value: DR15

Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 16
Bitrate: 1411 kbps
Codec: PCM
================================================================================
n

 

Here are the EAC values for the ABBA The Visitors (Japan Polydor P33P 20059)

DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR17 -1.25 dB -22.38 dB 01 The Visitors.wav
DR17 -2.46 dB -21.78 dB 02 Head Over Heels.wav
DR15 -2.58 dB -20.53 dB 03 When All Is Said And Done.wav
DR16 -2.27 dB -19.61 dB 04 Soldiers.wav
DR13 -4.65 dB -21.98 dB 05 I Let The Music Speak.wav
DR17 -2.23 dB -22.29 dB 06 One Of Us.wav
DR16 -3.48 dB -21.92 dB 07 Two For The Price Of One.wav
DR12 -5.57 dB -21.38 dB 08 Slipping Through My Fingers.wav
DR14 -9.19 dB -28.54 dB 09 Like An Angel Passing Through My Room.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 9
Official DR value: DR15

==============================================================================================
The West German Polydor CD also has an overall DR value of 15 (I posted it before in this thread), but some of the individual tracks are different (WAISAD on West German is 16DB, this Japanese CD is 15DB etc)

Rudolf

 

Just a question - if there is no such thing as different LP cutting tapes for different markets, how come that the Japanese Polydor and West German Polydor CDs differ on EAC values? Even the waveforms for the Japanese Polydor look different to the West German Polydor. Does this mean that the Japanese Polydor CD was sourced from a different tape? Or the same tape but slightly altered by the tape machine? etc

For reference too the Japanese Polydor CD has the standard mix of Head Over Heels.

Rudolf

 

You can read some reviews of The Visitors deluxe at the www.abba4ever.com forum here - http://www.iphpbb.com/board/viewtopic.php?nxu=30652567nx61610&p=518780

 

Well Rudolf I'd have to say the Deluxe Edition is the best, but only if you are able to EQ it yourself. Followed by the Polydor CD. The 2001 & 2005 remasters are too dreadful to even dwell on. The DE has a beautiful clarity and excellent dynamics if you're prepared to fiddle with it. No such fiddling is needed on VVDE and STDE.

I've read your review and it's an excellent one. I disagree however that it's muddy - my experience with it is that it's way too bright, and as soon as you pull off the brightness indiscriminately you get a lot of drownout from the thundering bass and drums which will certainly be heard as muddiness on some systems.

I would definitely dispute that it's from LP cutting tapes. An LP cutting tape has excessive highs and excessive lows rolled off because highs and sibilance burn out cutting heads, and heavy bass causes a stylis to jump even if it's able to be accommodated on the side of vinyl. There is no way this master could have ever been used to press vinyl since its overt characteristics determine its unsuitability. It's certainly an earlier generation than an LP cutting master.

And I really don't want to speculate about compression any more since we know little about how much was used during the original recording, mixing, mastering and the cutting master stage/s. Given the sound I'm hearing on the DL I'd say it's very close to the actual masters, which would necessarily need to be EQd and recompressed somewhat for LP production. All bets of course are off if it's been remixed from the multis...and let's face it, some of the tracks "just sound different"!

 

Thanks for your kind words.

There appears to be one piece of evidence that suggests that it does come from the LP tapes - the segue between Slipping Through My Fingers and Like An Angel Passing Through My Room. The tick-tock of the metronome starts on the fade out of STMF. From memory only one CD version (a solo Agnetha compilation from the 1990's, can't remember which one) has STMF ending cleanly. I don't have that Agnetha CD, but I was told this by a reliable source. I should ask him for a copy of the track to hear for myself.

Rudolf

 

Hi all

I managed to find the Agnetha CD in my collection (the 1998 compilation That's Me). You can still hear a click on the end. I suspect that they digitally removed the other clicks and so it isn't a clean version sourced from the mixdown. (listen here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5PrPZ_Xs6E ). Perhaps another source for a clean STMF may be found on the red Coca Cola single version. That single was released months before even Like An Angel Passing Through My Room was recorded, so it is unlikely to have the segue. I don't have this single myself. Does anyone here have it? (this is what I am talking about - http://www.abba4therecord.com/detail.php?recordID=67 )

Also when making this video, I discovered a dropout on STMF at at 3:45 on the Deluxe edition that isn't present on the Polydor. Seems like the Side B tracks have indeed come from an inferior source (or maybe the tape playing machine was having a bad day, who knows).

Rudolf

 

Not necessarily Moz. The pressing masters are cut from an assembled master. The variables regarding the metronome are many: eg tape boxes of both or one of the individual tracks should indicate exactly where the crossfade begins, and they might already exist as a pre-assembly "Tracks 8 & 9 Crossfaded" tape. They do seem to be an exact replication (on DE) as on the Polydor CD, but thats no indication that an LP pressing tape was used.

I wouldn't place a lot of stock in an unknown CD which ends "Slipping" clean: Agnetha's sustain on "smile" is VERY long with extended resonance, and could be faded easily and unnoticeably to remove the metronome because there is only one almost inaudible click in the her actual vocal.

We need to hear from the engineer!

 

Well that's true too. The Deluxe Super Trouper for instance did use mixdowns (from the UMG press release) but they cross faded in the segue between LAYLOM and TWOFD (they didn't even bother to crossfade in 1997 and 2001). Sorry I got a bit carried away before and I didn't think of that As I said before too, after hearing the CD it does appear to use the version with the metronome clicks anyway, just edits them out.

Rudolf

 

Can someone email the audio engineers and ask them what source tape was used? I know a few members here have had some success in contacting the engineers before, and this would be a good question to ask them. I would also like to know if these are flat transfers, or if they were compressed and re-equalised during remastering.

Rudolf

 

NIce review Rudolf! When you've heard the west german polydor with it's excellent dynamics, you get a little bit disappointed with the DE, even if it's good, there is the last couple of dB that really "makes it" with the polydor. All mistakes (bad B-side, HOH etc) shows that Univsersal doesn't take this seriously.

Rudolf, perhaps you could explain something to me. On the youtube-video made by markpmus on the Visitors DE, vinyl and polydor, it looks that in some parts the DE even has higher DR than the polydor? How come?

I thought all the copies of the Visitors were sourced from the same tapes, I've read that somewhere, and that would be a digital 3M tape. But apparently there are different versions made; the japanese had slightly lower DR than the west german polydor.

 

EQ, non audiably transparent equipment during transfer, tape generation (if not a clone and particularly when analogue), tape machine, tape line up. These all make a difference.