Added a Phono Pre-Amp to my setup...not liking it?

So i recently added a BBE Fjb-200 Phono Pre-Amp to my AT Lp120 TT and Yamaha Amp. I did not mind the sound of the LP120 to start with but wanted to see what adding a Pre-Amp would do. A few things i have noticed....

1) It is louder for sure. Same volume setting on my Amp and the volume is much louder.
2) The sound is somewhat hollow, like there is a metal trash can on top of the speakers but it doesnt cover them.....not muffled, just a tinge of echo almost, like a concert hall?

3) All of the imperfections in the vinyl are completely exposed now.....albums that sounded clean are now playing with just the slightest hint of pop and crackle.

A. is all of this normal?
B. Do better Pre-Amp's sound better? I dont really like the concert hall sound?


I removed the pre-amp and went back to the onboard amp that the TT uses. The Pre-Amp was about $50, which I have been told should be enough to increase sound quality somewhat.

 

Did you connect it to the PHONO input or AUX input? Needs to go into the AUX input, otherwise you'd be applying the RIAA curve twice! That would sound horrendous!

 

Yes , it is in aux . Switched the switch on TT to phono too.

 

From the AT website, "Finally, adjust the PHONO/LINE selector switch on the back of the turntable to set the proper output. If the turntable is connected to a receiver or other device with a dedicated phono input, move the switch to PHONO. If the turntable is connected to a sound card, powered speakers or AUX-type inputs, set the selector to LINE, which will activate the turntable’s internal pre-amp. If you are using the USB output to connect the turntable to a computer, the selector switch can be set to either PHONO or LINE as the switch doesn’t affect USB in any way."

Verify this is your configuration:

* Turntable set to PHONO
* Output of turntable to INPUT of BBE Phone Pre
* OUTPUT of BBE Phone Pre to AUX IN on Yamaha amp

 

I had simlar sound issues after connecting my ART USB phono plus pre-amp to my AT-LP120 and my B&O Beocenter 9300. Sounded hollow in places and jumbled in others. After a lot of playing around with settings and a bit of head scratching I decided to take the soldering iron to my nice new turn table and remove the built in pre-amp as recomended by a few people on this forum.
After I had removed the pre-amp from the TT the sound came back to life, clean, crisp and sounding how it should. I origionaly went for the AT-LP120 as it had a built in pre-amp as my B&O did not have one but the sound quality was mediocre at best.
I'm not saying you should do this or that it is a cure for your issue but it may be worth considering. Here is a link to the origional thread which discusses the pros and cons of removing the pre-amp and the instructional video Audio-Technica AT-LP120 Preamp Removal (Detailed Instructions Video) »

 

Yah Bigger Dave, the setup itself is correct.

Unfortunately, as I have read before on this forum and others, removing the onboard amp for the lp120 was going to be the solution. The first record I played with the preamp hooked up displayed the exact characteristics you mention above and the next and the next.....the hollow sound is one thing, that jumbled sound was what put me over the edge.

Not sure I want to rip out the amp though for various reasons.....oh well, I don't mind the sound as is....(and eventually I will want a second TT anyway...hehe, shhhhh)

 

I'm thinking you made a lateral move as far as the phono stage.

 

Lateral move or downgrade.

@Chester0711, can you return the preamp?

 

Yes, I can return it, are we feeling this is a lateral move because of the brand of Phono Pre-Amp (In other words, if I rip out the amp on the LP120, will I gain much using this Pre-Amp?)

 

Going on what I have experianced with my set up, the removal of the LP120 pre-amp and using a phono stage (pre-amp) vastly improved the sound quality. My pre-amp cost £50 ($65) and is no way a top end unit but the differance to the sound quality / clarity is as obvious as black & white. Done carefuly, you can by-pass the LP120 pre amp by de-soldering a couple of wires and soldering a pair of phono leads direct to the tone arm board leaving the pre-amp in place but not functional then if you dont like the results using the external pre-amp its only a case of soldering the LP120 pre-amp wires back into place.

 

I think that bacon Buttie's idea has merit. That is what I might choose to do. I do not see the need to physically remove the pre-amp. I would agree that taking it out of the circuit makes sense, so you can hear the difference and know that the phono-pre inside of the TT is definitely not the cause of your current problem.

If then, you are not satisfied, you can return your outboard phono-pre and try another one.

Rolls makes a phono-pre, it sells for $49 from Amazon and is available many other places. I have used it and it doesn't sound bad for it's price. At least, it does what it is supposed to do. My other outboard pre died, I am using this Rolls, until I order a new tube pre next month. Its my back up phono-pre.

rolls VP29 Phono Preamp



There may be an issue with the QC on the individual pre-amp that you bought, maybe try another. That you do have an increase in volume, does mean that it is in the circuit. But we can't be sure that the internal pre is not somehow effecting it in addition. As BIGGER Dave has pointed out. If the RIAA curve is being applied twice, it will sound bad (understatement).

As to the clicks and pops being more prominent, when you upgrade a component, you may hear additional detail that you have not noticed before, which is why we upgrade. Unfortunately, both the good and the bad are becoming more noticeable.

The fact, that your volume level is increased, can indicate two things.

1) If the volume is increased, the level of clicks and pops increases. Something that may be barely audible, is now more audible, because you are in effect turning up the volume and amplifying the background noise and bringing it up, along with your program material.

2) A replacement pre-amp, should not necessarily increase the volume, if the internal one is already doing it's job. They should both play about the same level. That might indicate that you are running the signal through both pre-amps, thus, gaining more amplification and running through the RIAA curve twice, screwing up the EQ and producing the strange sound that you are hearing.

Not familiar with your outboard, pre. Are there any adjustments available to the user, that might be set incorrectly. Usually there are not in this price range, but sometimes, there are switches to set the capacitance inside of the box. Resistance is likely set to 47K ohms at the factory.



Doesn't look like there are any settings available to the user.

The BBE and the Rolls may be the same pre-amp, just in different cases.

 

I've read a few threads on this website about phono pre's and the general consensus was they tend to be better than onboard but the big jumps in performance was in the $500+ range. I found a used Pro-ject Phono box for $140 and I would characterize it was louder and a touch better than the phono pre on my $900 yamaha amp. I couldn't justify the $450 price of the tube box although that was my first choice. I just don't think you are probably going to get a jump in performance from a $49 phono pre-amp. Depending on the rest of your system, it can be tough to justify $500 on a phono pre. On more robust systems it may be a no-brainer.

Clearly this phono pre is not for you or your system and you should return it. No reason to keep a piece of equipment that degrades the SQ you are used to. Were you happy with the sound of your LP's prior to adding the pre?

 

Well, if the new phono pre has considerably more gain than the old phono pre, you might wind up with significantly higher volume....I dunno what the specs are on the BBE, and at it's retail price I probably wouldn't expect it to be significantly better than the onboard pre -- and I understand that with that turntable, people who use outboard preamps tend to remove the onboard from the circuit because even in bypass the signal goes through the circuit board -- but the OP's new outboard pre could have more than the onboard pre's 36 dB of gain.

 

I certainly may have more gain, no way of knowing without testing. Since these are for MM cartridges, I wouldn't think that they would be set for more gain than 36dB.

But, who knows? I am guessing that his pre-amp is the same as the Rolls, but in a different box. Just too much alike.

I tend to agree with Bannanas&blow, with, if there is not a significant step up, why bother? His TT is worth X dollars, as is the cart. How much money, time and effort, should the OP invest in his current set up?. Best to enjoy it the way it came from the factory. This is not something that begs to be modded. The factory, worked to provide synergy to the TT as a complete, ready to play solution.

Wehen and if the OP, decides to upgrade his system, he should give thought about each component and decide in advance, the best he is able, where to start, what to do and then pause to enjoy and understand his system.

BTW. My post aside, would you have any input or recommendations for the OP? I'm definitely NOT the TT guy. I put a record on the patter of my Dual 1219 and press START.

 

Fully auto just like mine. Press the button and run to the couch and the scotch (mind equalizer). Bliss

 

Sounds like your over loading the pre in your Yamaha. What are the specs of the phono pre and your receiver?

 

That pre amp is just too cheap to give a genuine improvement over the internal crap one.

 

I don't have any experience with that table or phono pre, so I dunno. My generic advice would be, if the OP wants to upgrade, save for a better table and arm, though if he's a tweaker, people do seem to report success bypassing the onboard pre by hardwiring the arm to the output and using a better pre; I just wouldn't expect miracles at a $50 retail price point for the pre. But that's just kind of generic thinking so, not worth much since it's not based on any direct experience with rewiring one of those tables or with the current crop of budget pres.

 

I have the same AT LP120USB as my backup TT (while my primary Pro-Ject is being fixed by the dealer). I bypass the internal phono stage and have it hooked up to my Pro-Ject tube Box S valve phono preamp ($449). The sound is very good. Granted, not as good as through the Pro-Ject table, but good enough not to be tinkered with. In short - get a better phono preamp. Your $49 box isn't much better, or may even be WORSE than the on-board AT one. To get an audible improvement in sound, you need to spend, in my humble opinion, at least 3 to 4 times that. Good candidate - the NAD PP series, at about $150. You can get an entry-level Musical Fidelity for about $200. You can even get a Bellari valve preamp for about $250. Once hooked up - you WILL hear an improvement.

 

Lose the BBE and try a Lounge LCR. Good luck.

 

Wow, I appreciate all of the tips. Thanks guys. I like to tinker, which means I will probably search for something better no matter what I do. That said, I decided to go a different direction....I returned the crappy pre-amp. I got a nice deal on fully serviced Marantz 2220b and will give that a try in the meantime (cost would have been equivalent to the options listed above for the $150-$200 phono amps. I will be bypassing the onboard pre (trying to decide on cutting it out or just de-soldering). Thanks again for all help.

 

I thought I would reply to this thread with an update. I purchased a Marantz 2220b (refinished and serviced,etc...) to solve my Phono stage wants, hopefully it keeps me pacified for a while on that front.

The main thing I wanted to mention, I did go through and remove the Pre-Amp from the LP-120......WHAT AN INCREDIBLE DIFFERENCE!!!!!!! Sort of makes one wonder what AT was thinking!!!!! However, the person I had remove the Pre-Amp, who is very technically inclined in this field and undertstands circuit boards extremely well, enlightened me to something that I would not have otherwise thought of..... In this situation AT was more concerned with giving the beginner audiophile an option to use USB via computer, than they were with overall sound quality. A sign of the times so to speak, but that onboard pre-amp has more to do with appealing to newer technology and its use with a TT thanks anything else. The marketability of easily hooking up a computer to a turntable overtook SQ.

At any rate, if you have no desire to use the USB I highly recommend this adjustment for LP-120 owners, night and day! The best part is I have the BBE Phono pre mentioned above (Decided at the last minute not to return it) and it sounds better......can;t wait for the Marantz!\

Next we will upgrade the cart/stylus and possibly the speakers (any thoughts on a stylus upgrade (under or in the $150 price range) to go with the Marantz and LP-120?)

Thanks for all the tips and thoughts, you guys are great!

 

AT-120Eb immediately comes to mind for cart - two steps above the stock AT95E. You can get a cartridge/headshell combo, already pre-mounted/adjusted, for about $129-$149 on eBay.

AUDIO TECHNICA -PRO SOUND AT120EB/HSB HEADSHELL COMBO KIT »

or, you can get an Ortofon 2M Red PNP (plug-n-play), also already pre-mounted to fit into your tonearm, for about the same. Here it is on Ebay, from a respectable German seller (I bought my Blue from him)

Ortofon 2M Red PnP Headshell & Cartridge with Stylus - Plug and Play »

 

As to the speakers - what's your amp, what's your budget, what's your preferred type - towers or bookshelves?

 

In a few days my amp will be Marantz 2220b......for now bookshelf speakers, mainly due to the room I am using and space.

I have been looking at the AT-120Eb and the AT440Mla (or I guess it is the Mlb now) for an extra $50 is it worth it? I guess I wonder what the sound difference is between the two, some say the AT440Mlb is brighter but to what difference from the AT120Eb?

Also, are the Ortofon carts/stylus considered "better" quality than the AT, same?? Because that red cart is very appealing from a price point....