Adding an external AMP to an Integrated Amp

Looking for some guidance here. I have a Peachtree Nova (the original) and after absorbing some of the advice received here the past few months, I feel like it might be a good idea to add an external amp to try and upgrade the sound quality and ALSO play around with the sound using tubes. I don't necessarily need more loudness, but it seems that adding an external AMP (be it tube or SS) will do something positive for the sound even at current volume levels? This is a new area for me and I could use a nudge or two in how to proceed. I've been reading what I can find on the web, but I'll be damned if it all don't relate to AVR and not 2 channel, which is what my goal here is.

The Nova has a very nice sound signature to it already. 80 WPC, which for my small room (9 x 13) is plenty and I only ever hit 50 to 60% on the volume control. That said I am intrigued to learn what tubes can do to the overall sound signature and I hear you can change out tubes and get different sound nuances?

If you were me where would you start?

 

I used the Decco65 to feed an Audio Research VS110 from time to time just to check it out. It did fine but to be honest I think a tube preamp feeding a SS amp is preferable to the opposite. You might be better served by a good SS amp to provide more headroom, but of course that doesn't let you play with tubes to experiment which is half the fun.

For a tube amp you probably want to look for some of the smaller wattage amps. You wouldn't be able to crank it as much, but you would a more fun setup to play with.
If you start rolling, always try to start with the driver tubers rather than the power tubes as it's a ton cheaper and makes more difference. OF course I am far from an expert as I just got into tubes in the last two years, but it's what I've found so far.

 

I've considered selling the Nova and just starting from scratch. That would give me around 1500.00 to play with. From what I gather, I would need:

A pre-amp -which is basically where all your sources plug in and speakers are fed.

An Amp, which powers the pre.

Is that correct?

 

Not nessesarily....after all there are tube integrated (e.g. Jolida et. al.) if that's what you're looking for. There really aren't that many great separates in that price range. If you had a budget of ~$2500 you'd have a lot more options, but at that price point I'd probably just get, say, a Rogue Cronus Magnum ($2200) or Peachtree Nova 220SE ($2000) and call it a day.

 

I think I'd rather save up a bit more and go down the path of separates rather than another integrated. The Nova has a tube but the effect when it is engaged is negligible.

 

Integrated vs separates can be a two way street. I replaced my Decco with separates, but decided that I missed having a one box solution as I am space limited, so I bought the Cronus. It is an excellent integrated, but since I had a better set of separates sitting around, I flipped back to the separates. As they say "indecision may or may not be my problem....."

 

I am now of the opinion (based only on my current setup ... well, actually also an earlier one) that a SS preamp followed by a tube amp is the way to go (at least for my present tastes). I've had a few different systems/combinations over the years, but I'd say the best overall sound is what I have now. Parasound preamp into 300B tube amps.

I think selling and getting the Cronus Magnum is an excellent idea ... OR, get the Atlas Magnum (Cronus minus the preamp circuitry) and a SS preamp. The Cronus preamp seems to use a single 12AU7 dual-triode tube http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12AU7 for both channels in the preamp and a SS phono stage. Actually maybe that's not far removed from what the Peachtree does.

I'm sort of 'planning' to get a Cronus Magnum one of these days and some Monitor Audio Silver 8s or maybe 10s which it should drive well. Maybe set up the 300B amps and Titus monitors and sub in a separate room ...

The preamp section in the Cronus adds only $300 over the Atlas amp ... I don't know that you'll find as good a preamp for $300. SS Preamp (need phono)? I don't have a really good answer for you at the moment. I guess you could use the Peachtree as a preamp only (assuming it has preamp out jacks) but that seems not to be cost effective.

That is sort of what I did tho, after I built my 300B amp kits but still had a SS Integrated (Audio Analogue Puccini SE). When I splurged and got a McIntosh C220 preamp (hybrid with SS buffers in and out and tube line and phono sections) it was very much better in many ways, except resolution. The tube phono section absolutely KILLED the one in the Puccini tho. So that was a $1300 integrated using only the preamp section vs. a (then) $3300 MSRP tube pre.

Overall, though, I was missing some details that I heard with the Puccini as pre. After some tube changes things improved and I enjoyed it for several years. I had to sell it last year to raise some extra cash for my daughter's wedding but recently was able to get my current Parasound P 7 (SS) preamp. I love it, it's very resolving and musical and has much better low level detail retrieval (if memory serves of course) than the C220.

ANYWAY ... I don't think you'd go wrong with the Cronus integrated. It's almost universally praised as an excellent sounding 'system' and value. I would venture to say that changing the small signal tubes (12AX7 and 12AU7) would probably tweak the sonics in the direction you may want. Certainly listen to things in stock form for a long while (months) to get used to the sound.

Maybe later, if you feel something is 'lacking' or you want to 'nudge' things in some direction, look into what tube brands/vintages will do that, and try some. Good luck and happy listening!

 

By checking that it has pre outs.

 

The Nova has pre outs. The Nova offers flexibility in that it is an all in one out of the box (vacuum tube pre amp, class A/B SS amp, phenomenal DAC, and pretty decent headphone amp) it also can function as just a DAC, or a pre or any other combination should you choose. I lack experience and knowledge in choosing

 

Unless I'm mistaken, the Cronus would be worthy of some serious consideration as an upgrade over the Nova that allows me to get my feet wet in the tube arena. It looks as if it is the same thing as the Nova only with tubes and minus a DAC. In order to play digital I would add on an external DAC to the Cronus, is that correct?

 

Yes it has a phono, but no digital inputs. I used a Cambridge Dacmagic with mine. You could use the line out and keep the nova as a DAC until you find something else.

 

I'm using a Lounge Audio pre-amp for my turntable. The Cronus has a built in phono amp? I know...I know, I am being lazy...going to look at the website now

 

Not sure how it compares to the Lounge as I'm not familiar with that one. The one in the Cronus is OK as with any, it would likely depend on how it goes with your cartridge and what you are looking for.

 

The Lounge phono stage looks good! Yes, you'd need an external DAC as was stated. IIWY, I'd get the Cronus, listen for a long time (or maybe it'll be quick) to see how the phono sections compare (then sell the Lounge if needed), use the Peachtree as DAC until you get a standalone DAC (then sell the Peachtree) ...

I have the Cambridge 840C (couple years old) CD player, it has 2 extra digital inputs and the DAC is a notch up from the DacMagic I think. I do 98% of my listening these days with an older iMac as 'Music Server' thru the 840C. The new top-tier CD players from Cambridge may be a bit pricey (they have a couple tiers of CD players if you need a new one with external DAC inputs) and their standalone DACs are also good too of course. Many brands etc. to choose from, see which ones fit your tastes ...

 

Hey Mike,

If you are getting enough volume already and just want to play around with the sound, consider getting a good equalizer and doing it directly, rather than swapping amps and tubes. You can go crazy doing that, and you'll get sound you like better on some recordings and less on others. If you get an equalizer, you can adjust the sound to your preferences on everything.

Mike

 

I use to love equalizers Mike. I enjoy detail and to me equalizers would wring out that extra bit of detail. But about 4 or 5 years ago I wandered into the 2 channel forum over at AVS. I asked a question and mentioned the treble and bass knobs on my receiver. Well you would have thought I asked each member to donate their first born to me. I got my head torn off and shoved down my neck for even suggesting I use anything to fudge the sound. I wasn't very happy with how they went about it but I did "get" what they were saying. So from that moment on I have tried to enjoy the sound for what it is and I am not sure I could go back at this point. That said, I suppose one could argue that by "rolling" tubes (I believe that is the correct term) you are doing the same damn thing and I would love to hear the argument against that statement.

 

I think the suggestions above of the Cronus Mag are good. It's really an incredible unit (and one of the more popular items that I sell).

An additional option (also mentioned above) is the going with a Rogue Atlas Mag (amp only) and still using your Nova as the Pre/Dac.

 

Were you surprised by the reaction from those guys at AVS? I stopped going there years ago.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with a little EQ to adjust for deficiencies in a recording. If doing so sounds better to you, then no one can fault you. I rarely EQ anything, but I will when I feel the need to.

 

The Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum is easily one of the best values in tube amps now. We sell perhaps as many of those as the Sphinx amplifier, which is considerably less. The unit is basically the Atlas Magnum power amplifier with all of the functionality of the Metis preamplifier built-in. It is so good in fact, that it will take quite a bit in a separates system to meet its performance. After selling Rogue Audio gear for over 12 years and having heard most all of their products, I can say that they have really brought their best effort into the Cronus, it's quality of design and build make for a terrific performer and a very affordable amp, all while keeping production in the USA.
-Bill

 

Boy you guys are really selling me on the Magnum. How would you compare the high end detail it offers compared to a solid state amp?

 

Yeah, that's a common audiophile reaction. Of course, 99.9% of all recordings have been equalized, compressed, and converted in mastering before you get them. So why shouldn't you make a little further adjustment to suit your tastes (and your room)?

I think the best advice is to suit yourself. It's your money, your system, your ears, your pleasure. You wouldn't marry the wrong person because some guys -- guys you don't even know -- tell you to. The same holds for your stereo system -- do what YOU like.

Have fun!

 

Mike,

Pre-owned Nova's on eBay that I see listed seem to be selling in the $400-$500 range. Keep Your Nova and add to it! You have an excellent Saber DAC, a quality class A preamp and headphone amp. You just missed the annual Emotiva holiday sale... But... I just received an email that they have a private sale going on. I have the 1st generation of their XPA-2. Now, they are offering their improved version, generation-2, with a completely redesigned board and the price of the new version has been raised by $100 to $899. The good news is that with the private sale, for a limited time they are offering their customers "Factory Renewed" products. You can join their E-Club for $49 per-year and buy a factory reconditioned XPA-2 for $649 and it comes with a 5-year factory warranty covering both parts and labor (this works out to $9.01 per-pound).

I bought my Nova as a factory reconditioned unit for $900 and I use to drive my front speakers with my XPA-2. The only weak part of the original Nova is the power amp, which is not a bad amp, just not a great one. I have a Emotiva HT processor and I bring it into the Nova via the digital inputs, this way, I use the same front speakers for both HT and pure stereo.

I use the line output of the Nova, which is directly off of the DAC to connect to my tube pre-amp and then to my Rogue tube power amps. I have a pair of their monoblocks and when I am not using them, they run through my Cronos Magnum, which, I think, sounds just as good as the monoblocks. The tube amps power my horn theater speakers. Just some feedback, I have hooked up the tube amps to the front non-horn speakers and I didn't get a really noticeable difference in sound between them and the Emotiva. With the horns, I hear a big difference. You can't go wrong with the Cronos, but before you pony up $2,300, have someone come by with a tube amp and listen through your speakers.

I think that today, most speaker manufacturers, voice their speakers to run with SS amps. If your speakers sound great through SS amps, a tube amp is not going to be as big of a difference as you might be led to believe. When you are running highly efficient horn speakers that are very dynamic, put something harsh in and they will try to take your head off. The tube amps will take away the harsh edge and make the music sound more natural.

On the Nova, I can't tell any difference when I put the tube into the circuit, sometimes I can tell when I remove it though. When I take the tube back out of the circuit, the music becomes ever so slightly more clear, like a veil has been lifted. Do not confuse the Nova with the tube engaged to be anything like the sound of a tube amp, it is not.

However... the trick is, that you can replace the factory tube with a NOS tube and that can add some tube type sound into the mix, this you can do for less than $100, for an I demand NOS tube or $20 for more commonly available NOS tube. Call one of the companies that specializes in NOS tubes and get one that is very tube sounding, since you can take it in and out of the circuit. If you unscrew the screws in the rubber feet, the amp will just slide out of the case and you can unplug the old tube and replace it with your NOS one.

 

Your speakers woofers are not humongous, so the next logical thing would be a subwoofer. But to get the proper benefit, you need to high pass your speakers, which I don't think you can do with the Nova. Most integrateds for whatever reason don't have pre-out/main-in RCAs to accommodate that. So a more fruitful approach might be to step up to a tower speaker.

 

By using an EQ you're raising the noise floor, but if that doesn't bother you, have at it.

 

You know it's funny. I added a sub to it (Velodyne Deq-8) which offers some nice punchy bass. I'm not sure I like it better with the sub. I'll wait for the new speakers to arrive this weekend and then make a decision re: the sub.