Advice on buying a Victrola...

Years ago, when I was in college, I got into collecting 78s and bought a turntable to play them (Esoteric... kinda like a cheaper version of the KAB 78 tables). Within a few years, though, I got more into modern audiophile collecting and got rid of my 78s and 78 table. Now I'm regretting it, since there was some great music I had that I'll probably never get back. Plus, looking back at how a lot of those old records sounded, some really were spectacular; dynamic, almost life-like.

I recently have thought about getting back into 78's and was thinking that I would maybe get a period victrola to play them on. Steve, I remember you have a Victrola that you love the sound of. Does anyone have any advice on what to look for in a vintage Victrola? What should I watch out for? There are two Columbia Grafanola's on craigslist in my area, plus a Victrola that is a 'double-wide'. It has a turntable on one side and cabinet on the other.

Any advice?

 

If you get 78s in nice condition and want to keep them that way, and get Hi-Fi sound, then you should buy a 78 turntable. I have not even seen but a couple out of hundreds of 78s that were in good condition though, so I can't say how realistic it is to collect them for Hi-Fi quality, but rather for nostalgia and some funky old tunes that are way out of print.

I have around 5 or 6 "Victrolas" now from several makes. I might have the "double-wide" Victrola version that you are talking about. It is a very nice piece with room for records on either side of a central internal horn, all covered by doors. It is super heavy.

Mechanically, the trouble spots are the main tonearm bearing where it rides on some ball bearings captured in a race. The race is a cast housing and the top of this housing has a cone pivot that can be adjusted to determine the pressure on the ball bearings. You need to look for cracks in this housing as it was cast from "pot metal" and does not age well. It is also very fragile and rather soft so it doesn't make for a good support. Maybe there are some brass replacements available for collectors. So pay attention to those parts and get them as clean as possible. I recommend complete disassembly, soaking in solvent, cleaning, lubricating, and reassembly. It's a very laborious process and gets very dirty. The grease used has turned to wax after 80 years and it is black and will stain anything it touches. I basically gave up on restoring them after my shop got busy.

Sonically, those bearings are important too, so replacing the balls after cleaning the race is likely a must unless you have found a "museum quality" piece. Also there is the reproducer which should be rebuilt. Rather than do this yourself, you can send it off to have that done. Of course, you can buy the parts and do it but it would be easier to just mail it back and forth and let a pro do it. The reproducer is what amounts to the cartridge and is the round device that attaches to the end of the tonearm and holds the needle. This contains rubber gaskets, a mica diaphragm, and a couple of steel springs and screws. You also need a couple of tins of needles. They are available in two or three shapes and are described as "Loud", "Soft", etc. These should only be used once and discarded after each play! That is the main reason that almost all of the 78s that I have seen were in bad shape. people would reuse needles as they would lose them and later generations would not know to change them after each play. That and just poor storage and handling practices of course. There is a small company in NY that has many parts and who will also rebuild your reproducer for you. They can mail you a catalog and may have an on-line one as well by now, I'll have a look. Here it is: http://www.antiquephono.com/victor.htm
-Bill

 

Wow, Bill! Thanks for all your advice. You gave practially gave us a crash course on Victrola restoration! Much appreciated.

BTW, I've always liked ya... especially when you praise the Jolida JD-9 phono preamp that I have and love.

 

Several years ago, I sold off my collection of "Victor Talking Machines". Victor I, II, III...VI, Monarch Special, etc. These are the table model Victors with external horns. They proved to be one the best financial investments I ever made!

Therefore, another option for you to consider, is investing in an external horn machine. Your initial investment will be much, much higher, but you can rest assured that it will continue to appreciate over the years.

On the other hand, if you buy a Victor, Columbia, Brunswick or other brand of cabinet model, there is the real possibility that you would not be able to get what you paid for it, if you decide to sell it at a later date.

I held on to two of my machines to bequeath to my sons when I finally "bite the bullet"....a Victor I, and a Victor II. See pictures attached.

Good luck in your quest!

HG

 

Those sure are beautiful machines.

I have a few old electric 78 rpm turntables (record players) in the form of consoles and suitcase style. A few of them use the straight steel needle stylus but I purchased sapphire type tip needles for them. They last longer than steel.

I only occasionaly play 78's on them, like at Christmas time, but I prefer to use a Pioneer belt drive I modified to spin varible speed on up past 80 rpm. I have a Stanton and a Shure cart. with 2.7 mil stylus for that TT.

78's do have a nice sound to them; even with RIAA EQ.

 

if you plan to play electrically recorded 78s find a victor orthophonic or columbia viva- tonal machine to play them on. electrical 78s sound horrible played through a regular victrola.

the outside horn machines can be very expensive especially a victor V or VI which were the most durable and playable models.

 

Drat! Why, oh, why did I not spot this until I must leave for work and don't have time to do a proper reply? Anyhow, one word of advice: beware of "crapophones." Do a Google search for that term for more info.

 

Not to mention you will also destroy the record. Most electronically recorded 78's were designed to be played back with electronic pickups, not the extremely heavy acoustic systems.

 

I have a Victrola four like the one in the pictures above with the folded horn. They're really cool but like Joe has already mentioned, they are not appropriate for electronic 78's, you have to find the big thick records. The needles that go with these machines are little steel cones that will plow 78's made in the 50's. You have to change needles after every side.

I never play my collector 78's, think: Miles, Charlie Parker, Chuck and Elvis, Bill Haley, etc... On my Vic, I play the classical book sets that go for a dollar at the antique stores. Most of them are already severely damaged, so I don't sweat plowing those, and believe me those steel needles with that reproducer (arm) is a plow.

For the collector stuff, I use my RCA suitcase player.

 

Holy crap, I can't stop laughing over that term. First time I ever heard it. Ya learn something new here every day, I tell ya....

 

A "Crapohone" is usually a machine cobbled together from reproduction parts. There's also "Frankenphones." Like one that was on e-bay recently.
It was the works of a Victor machine that had been mounted in an Edison Diamond Disc cabinet. It didn't actually look that bad, and could pass easily to unsuspecting buyer. But even disregarding authenticity, a machine like that could still be bad news, because there's no way to tell if/how it's been monkeyed with internally. Gotta watch for that stuff...

Besides Victor Victrolas or Talking Machines, you run across Columbia machines quite a bit, I think the build quality on Columbias can be dodgy. Brunswick made excellent machines, no reason to pass over a Brunnie if you find a good deal on one.
Edisons, of course are really only suitable for Edison Diamond Discs, unless you get an seperate reproducer attachment for playing lateral records.

 

If you have never heard an original Enrico Caruso single-sided Red Seal 78 played through an external horn Victor, you have not yet heard the true volume and timbre of this mans incredible voice!

Standing directly in front of the horn, with only a small steel needle and a mica diaphragm separating you from the music, you feel as though Caruso himself is actually in your presence. Trust me, it's a musical experience that is hard to duplicate with electronic equipment!

HG

 

well the early electrics (starting in 1925) pressed in shellac were played on orthophonics and viva-tonals which were acoustic machines. and the early electronic magnetic pickups from the late 20s and 30s were monstrously heavy, worse than the acoustic ones.

78s from the 50s say, are usually cut pretty loud and eq-ed differently and will sound blasty on any of the old acoustic machines. you also have to watch out for later 78s pressed on vinyl because those machines will destroy them.

you do have a point, though. any 78 you really want to preserve shouldn't be played on one of those old machines. a modern turntable will be much kinder to it.

 

Also, regarding record preservation, earlier machines tend not to have any consideration made for tracking error. Some machines have arms/reproducers that swing in a wide, clumsy arc across the record, which will exert a lot of wear on the record. Later on, provisions were made to provide a proper reproducer offset, relative to tonearm length, to provide more uniform tracking.

It's no less a point to consider with an antique phono than with a modern turntable.

 

As HG mentioned, there is something remarkable about the playback on these machines, really amazing with certain material.

I bought a Crapaphone when I first got into Vic's, it had the external horn and looked to my novice eyes to be authentic. Upon further inspection (at home) I noticed that the Victrola logo was a sticker instead of a brass badge and the TT motor was a Thorens. Hmm... Luckily the guy took it back because I bought it in a well known antique store in Pasadena and I made it known that I wasn't taking no for an answer. I'm sure it got re-sold to someone less fortunate.

It was a wobbly mess.

 

edisons were built like tanks. victors were usually fine though some of the late 20s models used pot metal tone arm components that tend to swell over time and freeze up or crumble. columbias vary widely. they're usually the poorest of the big 3, though i have a viva tonal 820 model that is absolutely beautiful. the motor was made in england by garrard.

 

Like Steve said, some other companies made great "talking machines" to compete with Victor's Victrola.

I have a 1917 Silvertone model that actually has more external design and craftsmanship than it's Victrola counterpart. And to think this was the budget model sold by Sears & Roebuck! On it right now is "A Dream", by Caruso, a one sided red seal Victor 78 issued in 1920. It's in amazing condition and sounds incredible for what it is. It certainly not "hi fi" but it has a character and charm all its own.

 

My advice is to make sure that you actually see what you could be potentially buying.
Don't buy on ebay.
Make sure that you check it out carefully and ask to listen to several discs.
Ask lots of questions regarding which parts have been replaced and how recently.
If you're purchasing one of the "horn" machines that have been refurbished and the asking price is over $3000, ask for credentials - and do some research on the dealers.
Vintage Victor machines from the early 1900s go for BIG bucks and are good investments, but there are a few folks out there who try to sell machines where almost 90% of it is reproduction. You'd rather it be the other way around where no more than 10% is. (We're talking gears, nipper stickers, the wooden handle - small things like that).

Make sure the horn isn't cracked, or if it is, that is has been properly repaired.
Stay away from the horn machines made in India.
They’re still being produced there and one can be had for as low as $75.00.
They usually have gold horns made of thin metal (almost like aluminum or tin).

While there are fewer Columbia machines out there to be had, and some are quite beautiful, the Victors are the ones in demand (thanks in part to Nipper).
Keep that in mind if you're looking for one to invest in.

The Victrolas (with the speakers in the cabinet) should be in the $200-$700 range unless there is a tremendous amount of wood work involved in the cabinet - or it's made of mahogany.

Hope that helps!

 

Don't forget that Victrola type machines were manufactured in third world markets until the 60s or 70s due to lack of electricity, and many have found their way in to US antique shops. Also, India still does the repos you mentioned, often with large brass horns.

Columbia's used pot metal which was very prone to cracking, and can't really be reworked. Check for such, and look up parts/repair costs before buying. I still kick myself over passing on a Columbia that looked like a desk, with the horn where the drawers would normally be. Reasonably priced, too.

Watch out for Standard's too. Made by Columbia, with oversized spindle wholes to make you buy only their records. (That's why they were so comparitively cheap when they were new).

 

Harmony phonos had oversized spindles too. Machines like those are mainly display pieces.

 

I thought I'd put together a little primer about acoustic phonos, but it turned out not to be so little, I'm afraid. Well, here goes....

While all are monaural, acoustic disk players come in several flavors, and each is appropriate for some types of records and not others. The broadest divide is between machines designed for "vertical cut" (or "hill-and-dale") and those designed for "lateral cut" records.

Vertical:

Thomas Edison adopted the vertical cut system for cylinders, in which format it was the universal standard; a minority of disk records adhered to this approach as well. The recording modulates from the bottom of the groove and perpendicular to the record’s surface, meaning that the stylus vibrates up and down. The principal adherents to this system, and the only suppliers from which you are likely to find playback hardware, were Edison and Pathe. Both brands of record were to be played with relatively precision-ground jewel styli, diamond and sapphire respectively. Edison had no imitators; a few labels, such as Rex and Disque Henry, adopted the Pathe groove configuration. You may find a few needle cut verticals on labels like Lyric, Par-o-ket, or early Brunswick or Vocalion.

Edison diamond discs are quite distinctive, being a full quarter of an inch thick with surfaces of a phenolic resin called "condensite" (it looks rather like Bakelite but emphatically is not the same thing). In many cases the label information is etched into the record material in a nearly holographic fashion; those records that had paper labels have often lost them, exposing a plain, brown cardboard circle. Edison diamond discs run at a standard 80 RPM and are nearly always 10" in diameter; 12" issues are extremely rare and expensive LP issues (see below) or slightly more common but still expensive dealer samples. The machines to play Edison discs are similarly distinctive. Edison never issued an open-horn disc player, but the Edison machines nonetheless all have a metal horn separate from the cabinet, set on a pivot, that curls around to the back under the motor and opens behind a grille below the turntable. The remainder of the mechanism similarly is separate from the cabinet; all is mounted on a metal bedplate bolted to metal mounts and often surrounded by wooden falsework to fill the gap between the bedplate and the inside of the cabinet walls. Volume control, if present, is effectively always by a ball of fluff that you can ram into the throat of the horn by means of what amounts to a bicycle brake cable. The stylus rides in the record groove on a floating weight, while the tonearm travels across the record surface by a mechanical feed system synchronized to the (constant) groove pitch of the records. A cuing lever is provided to raise and lower the horn/reproducer system and swing it into position for play. You may (but probably won’t) see a lever on the bedplate allowing you to select "long" or "short"; if so, the machine is equipped with reduction gearing to play the ill-fated Edison long playing diamond discs, which ran for up to 24 minutes per side at 80 RPM. These records had a groove 1/400 inch wide, compared to the 1/150 inch of a standard diamond disc and ca. 1/250 inch for a modern LP microgroove. You cannot play the Edison LP discs without a special reproducer; the standard Edison reproducer will ruin them. You also cannot play any Edison diamond disc on a non-Edison machine without injury (with the possible exception of some Brunswicks; see below). Similarly, you cannot play any other make of record on an Edison machine without an adaptor; such things were made and are available, but, frankly, they are cumbersome and not entirely satisfactory in operation. The first few diamond disc machines were "A" types (A-150, A-250, etc.), and their mechanisms were not completely standardized. A couple of years later, Edison introduced the "C" series machines (C-150, C-250, etc.); the mechanism of these varied only in the size of the horn and number of spring barrels (1 or 2) fitted to a standard gear train. Edison made few table models, as the machinery was quite bulky; nearly all the machines were either uprights or low consoles. Among the uprights, if you want a "player" machine and aren’t looking to become a "machine collector," your best bet is probably a C-250, later renamed the C-19, described by the model name "Chinese Chippendale" and nearly always found bearing a medallion inside proclaiming it to be a "standard laboratory model." It was the most popular of Edison’s top-end machines and hence generally isn’t as pricey as the more uncommon models or those with fancier cabinets; it has the largest of Edison’s standard line horns and a two-spring motor. The most common upright machine is probably the S-19 "Sheraton sans inlay" model, which had the intermediate sized 150 horn and one spring, and one of these would be a good "economy" option. If you prefer a console style, the most common model is the BC-34 "baby console," which again had the 150 intermediate horn and a single spring. Console versions of the larger models don’t seem to turn up often. The last two diamond disc players Edison produced were the "Edisonic" models, the "Schubert" (single spring) and larger "Beethoven" (double spring), which had slightly larger horns than the 250 series and which were designed to play electric recordings. You can easily recognize these because they, alone among Edison’s spring-driven models, controlled volume by doors over the grille instead of a fluff ball; believe it or not, Victor had a patent on doors in that application, but by the time the Edisonic machines came out it had expired. Edisonic machines are quite rare, and you are unlikely to encounter one, but they are fine players for both acoustic and the rare electric diamond discs, although for the former you will probably do best to refit the machine with the earlier (but fully compatible) standard type reproducer. For more information, I recommend George Frow’s excellent book entitled The Edison Diamond Disc Phonographs and the Diamond Discs, which has detailed specifications for all the disc machines Edison issued.

Pathe discs look more like standard 78s in that they are of average thickness. They may have title and catalogue information etched into the surface of the record, or they may sport paper labels. The former are generally "center start," meaning that they play from the label out, and run at ca. 90 RPM; the latter are conventional "outside start" and play at ca. 80 RPM. These speeds are approximate, as Pathe was not systematic about holding to a standard RPM figure. All Pathe vertical cut records play with a so-called "sapphire ball" stylus, a sapphire of extremely large radius, meaning that they have unusually broad, shallow grooves. Playing a Pathe record with a steel needle will destroy it; avoid any that show signs of graying or needle tracks on the label. Pathe machines came in a bewildering array of configurations, some quite conventional and some downright odd. (My avatar machine, for instance, is a Pathe "diffusor" type.) None are all that common, although the cabinet upright types don’t command particularly high prices. Pathe did issue some open horn models, but they seem mostly confined to Europe and go for high prices. The Pathe cabinet uprights, at least, featured a reproducer set at an angle such that it could play Pathe disks with the sapphire ball or, by substituting a steel needle, conventional 78 RPM shellac disks; volume control, if present, generally is by a knob or slider actuating a shutter in the throat of the horn. Although designed for vertical cut records, in their standard configuration the Pathe machines could not play Edison diamond discs, and I know of no suitable adaptors to enable them to do so. All of the cabinet uprights I’ve seen seem more or less interchangeable in terms of performance, design, and value. Note: Pathe "Actuelle" records were lateral cut, not vertical, and so should be played on a steel-needle lateral machine.

Lateral:

In a lateral recording, the modulation runs in the walls of the groove, parallel to the plane of the record surface; i.e., the needle vibrates from side to side. This system, first commercially deployed by Emile Berliner, was by far the most common during the acoustic era and became the standard thereafter up until the development of stereo. Aside from Edison and Pathe products, nearly every acoustic player that you encounter will be designed for these records. Lateral records almost universally were intended to be played with single-use steel needles held in the reproducer by some form of thumb chuck.

The big name in the United States for lateral machines was The Victor Talking Machine Company, descended from Emile Berliner’s Gramophone Company, which made open horn models ("Victors") and enclosed horn ones ("Victrolas"); generically, both were "talking machines." Open horn models may have a fixed metal arm sticking out of the front of the case to support a moveable arm of wood or metal, pivoted at the end of the fixed arm away from the case, that carries the horn and reproducer across the record; this configuration, seen in the famous "His Master’s Voice" trademark, is called "front mount." They may instead have a fixed metal bracket extending from the rear of the case, supporting the horn above and a separate tonearm extending from the bottom to the record; these are known as "back mount" and have the advantage that the record does not support the weight of the horn, which therefore can be larger and heavier. In either configuration, such machines are in high demand and carry a collector’s premium. Victrolas feed sound from the tonearm into a wooden, horn-shaped chamber built into the cabinet, with the mouth beneath the motor and turntable and usually equipped with doors for volume control and concealment. Most had a lid to cover the turntable and tonearm. Prices for these machines on average are far more moderate, although certain models, like the Orthophonic Credenza, are exceptions. In all cases, open horn or Victrola, the motor and tonearm mount to a wooden motorboard integral to the cabinet. Up to the advent of electric recording in 1925, Victrolas’ "horn" chambers were shaped something like a squared off megaphone. Most machines had model numbers in Roman numerals (Victrola IX, Victrola XVI, etc.). The most common reproducers were the Exhibition and the later and somewhat larger Victrola No. 2, both with exposed diaphragms of clear material. When Victor launched its first electric recordings, it brought out a new series of so-called "Orthophonic" Victrolas with much more elaborate horns having an exponential cross section and folded in on themselves within the cabinets for extra length. After a brief fling with assigning colorful names ("Credenza," "Granada," etc.), Victor resumed a development that began late in the acoustic era, designating machines by hyphenated Arabic numerals (4-20, 8-4, etc.) rather than the old Roman numeral system. The Orthophonic models featured a newly-designed reproducer with a metal cover over an aluminum diaphragm. The earlier Victrolas were designed for acoustic recordings and do not perform well with electric ones; the reverse is true for Orthophonic models. From the acoustic era, if you want a table model, by far the most common is the Victrola IV, which had doors over the horn opening but no lid. Its successor, the Victrola 1-1, did away with the doors. Probably the best of the acoustic era table models for the buyer wanting a machine for use is the Victrola IX, which had a lid and doors and a robust two-spring motor. Among uprights, the most common and moderately priced is the Victrola XI, and one of these would be a good choice for a beginner or, again, for someone looking for a single "user" machine. The flagship (but not top) of the Victrola line from this era was the Victrola XVI, which is not rare but which carries a fairly pronounced price premium because of strong demand among collectors. It came in two basic styles: "L-door," with (appropriately) L-shaped doors covering the record storage space and a smaller, inset pair of doors over the horn opening, and the redesigned later style with rectangular doors over both record storage and horn opening. The former is most in demand, but the latter is what you want for a "playing" machine, as its larger horn opening makes for better sound and its price will be more reasonable. From the Orthophonic era, the console style "Granada" (later known as the 4-4) is a good bet, because it was the second-best model Victor produced at the time but, despite its attractive cabinet, is not especially popular with collectors and hence is not as expensive as the top-line "Credenza" (8-30). Open horn Victors are generally quite expensive. Your best bet here might be a back mount Victor III or IV with a metal horn. The oak Victor V, usually seen with the premium oak spear-tip horn, is probably your "top line" option; the Victor VI, in mahogany, was essentially a cosmetically elaborated V and carries a huge collector’s premium. Stay away from the front mount machines as "players," as they are real record grinders. Some adaptors were made to play Pathe, Edison, and other vertical discs on Victor machines. My experience is that an adaptor-equipped Victor can play Pathes OK but tends not to track those shallow grooves securely; steel needle type verticals, of course, would do fine. I would be afraid to try an adaptor for Edisons on a Victor machine. For much more detailed information, a good resource is the book Look for the Dog by Robert Baumbach.

As it was in the cylinder era, Columbia was the second largest US record and phonograph producer for disk machines. Like Victor, Columbia produced both open horn machines (in front and back mount configurations) and cabinet models, and each class strongly resembled Victor’s in general layout; the former were known as "disc Graphophones" and the latter as "Graphonolas." Model nomenclature tended to be confusing, and the open horn machines often were not even labeled. Columbia machines, fairly or not, have a reputation for not being as well built as their Victor counterparts, and they seem not to turn up as often, but many were quite beautiful, and most were strong performers. The acoustic era machines reputedly do not sound as good as Victors because they had straight, tubular tonearms where Victor had a tapered arm (protected, naturally, by a patent). In general, Columbias do not cost as much as corresponding Victors, but that is not to say that the open horn models are much more "affordable." Graphonolas often feature louvers over the horn mouth (that Victor door patent again!) A weak point in Columbia cabinet models is the tonearm mount at the motorboard, which was made of pot metal and which tends to be broken or frozen. With the introduction of electric recording, "Viva Tonal" was Columbia’s answer to "Orthophonic." Some of these machines are quite stunning, but they don’t turn up very often.

A multitude of other manufacturers competed with Victor and Columbia in the teens and twenties. Among the more successful was Brunswick, which attempted to make the first "multi-player" by fitting its machines (all internal horn) with the so-called "ultona" tonarm, configured to play both lateral and vertical records, including Edisons. The cabinets tended to be very attractive, but the reproducer was complicated and, according to the one collector I know who had one, gave only moderately satisfactory results compared to the "big names." I would hesitate to play Edison discs with an ultona, but in theory they should do OK.

Other makers included the Starr Piano Co. (maker of Gennett records); the Aeolian Piano Company (maker of Vocalion records, until Brunswick bought out its phonograph business); Sonora (a former bell foundry—hence its slogan, "Clear as a Bell"), which attempted to serve the top end of the market with deluxe, high-priced players; Puritan, Cheney, Claxton, and on and on and on. You likely will encounter Silvertone, which was the Sears, Roebuck and Co. line, mostly manufactured by Columbia. You may also encounter Standard, United, or other makers that sold machines cheaply by mail and fitted them with an oversized spindle in order to lock the customer into buying only their records. Again, Columbia was the OEM for many such machines. In general, if you want a good, solid machine to play, you’ll do best to avoid such "off brands"; if something breaks on a Victrola, replacement parts are usually readily available, but not so for smaller makers. Moreover, Victor really did on average produce a product superior in sound to those of the smaller companies. That’s not to say that a particular "off brand" machine can’t sound great and be a good performer, but the law of averages is against it.

 

Real beauties.

I have this on my wishlist for quite a while but first need to find the right space to display them.

Will have to wait until I move back to the US.