Alnico speakers - Strengths & Weaknesses

Hi all. I visited Pitch Perfect yesterday and finally got to hear what all the fuss about Shindo is about. I'll give a full report in my other thread, but needless to say I was impressed. First, my question in case you don't care about the background. Then a bit of background.

Question: What are the strengths & weaknesses of Alnico speakers in general and the Shindo 604's specifically (if you know).

Background:

I spent most of my time auditioning various Shindo components with the DeVore O/96's since I was leaning toward that speaker. We did listen to the field-coil Latours. Wow. Definitely my dream speaker.

But Matt threw me for a loop when we auditioned the Shindo 604 Alnico Loudspeaker. It does a lot of what the Latour does at less than half the price. I'm leaning toward this speaker at this point, but I was only able to spend about an hour listening to the speaker and didn't get to throw a full barrage of musical genres at it.

We started with some Chet Atkins and the tone was incredible. I was immediately intrigued. Since we didn't have a lot of time, I wanted to test the 604's with some "thicker" more thumping music. We put on some Depeche Mode. Honestly, I wasn't impressed at first. It was way too relaxed, distant and polite.

Matt went behind the 604's and made some adjustments. Apparently, you're able to tune the speakers to your room and preference. We played the same Depeche Mode tracks and... holy smokes... it was like a totally different speaker. All of a sudden, it felt like Depeche Mode was playing right in front of me.

We threw on some Kraftwerk and it was like getting punched in the gut. Exactly what I was looking for. We finished up with some tracks off Ziggy Stardust which were the only tracks we played on every speaker/amp combo as our baseline. Frankly, that album sounded AMAZING on everything we tried, a testament to the Shindo pre-amp as well as the quality of the recording. It's one of my favorite albums of all time, but it's never sounded as good as it did on the Shindo stuff.

The 604's most definitely aren't 2-3x as good as the Devore 0/96's. There's definitely diminishing returns and I'd totally be happy with the DeVore's. That said, the Shindo 604's felt "worth it" for the amazing stuff they could do that the 0/96's just couldn't muster at quite the same level. You just feel the music more and the 604's seemed to get even better at the volumes I like to listen to music. They were effortless and airy.

 

You might post in the Omega forum in Audio Circle. There are Alnico variants of most of that line, so owners are going to have some opinions. I've not heard anything bad, and everyone who upgrades seems well pleased.

 

You might want to also check out Salk Sound Exotica3 speakers.
92db sensitivity. Uses SEAS alnico drivers.

There's a Salk thread on Audio Circle and AVS.

 

The strengths of alnico are microdynamics and tone. This belief is generally considered a placebo response, but the differences are usually notable if you also have a system that excels at those qualities. The major weakness of the Shindo 604, like all 604s, is insufficient bass authority with modern recordings. The major weaknesses of alnico are that it's expensive and fragile. Overpowering it can lead to serious magnetic losses.

The major strength of the Shindo 604 is, of course, the crossover. It's well tuned, musical, and reduces the pain of the 604's taser-of-mass-destruction treble. The major weakness is the price.

All 604's -- all of them -- suffer from limited top end output, a nasty discontinuity between the horn and the cone (they both operate in breakup at the crossover region), and the reflections off the back of the horn. Life gets a lot easier if there's a way to fit a larger horn system in your space.

 

Those are quite the departure in looks compared to the O/96's you were looking at, perhaps they look better in person, but IMO from the picture they look pretty much like DIY plywood cabinets, but of course beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and the sound more than anything is what's truly important.

Just throwing this out there so please don't be offended, but are you sure you're buying on performance and not being seduced by the exoticness of the brand name? The 604 drivers are known to be how kfringe described them. If I was going to throw down that much coin towards a speaker like the Shindo 604, I would spend a more time with them than you did and go in there as an educated listener who understands the faults of that driver (as kfringe described). I would also be curious to hear them with more natural/honest sounding electronics that don't color everything so rosey (albiet that might not be important if you only plan on using them with a full Shindo kit). If you don't hear those faults maybe Shindo did sprinkle pixie dust on them and finally fixed all the weaknesses, which would be pretty amazing and a tribute to his skills for sure.

But just on specs alone, a modern designed AlNiCo driver such as Omega's Hemp Cone, Audio Note's, Salk's SEAS or the Voxativ should blow this out of the water with better coherency, top end and smoothness in transitioning throughout the frequency ranges. Even those companies mentioned other non-AlNiCo drivers should best the 604 by a good margin.

I would also have to agree with kfringe's assessment of the AlNiCo drivers. I have spoken with Louis at Omega in length regarding his AlNiCo vs. Ferrite drivers he offers in his speaker designs (by the way, all drivers Omega offers are in house OEM product designed by Louis). Anyways, I told him the majority of my music was Rock with their sub genres of Hard/Punk/Classic/Prog, etc. with a little Jazz and Bluegrass/Classic Country thrown in and he recommended the Ferrite designed magnets over the AlNiCo as they were better for the type of music that I listen to and can take more punishment (aka be driven harder). Whereas the AlNiCo, which although they have better micro-dynamics and smoother transitioning through the frequency range, they are also more delicate and can be overdriven to the point of performance loss over time. I have to say that in the back of my mind I have always wanted to own a pair of Omega's Hemp AlNiCo drivers though.

 

That's the story I got as well. Given Brian's musical taste and his stated desire for higher volumes—probably worth some thought.

 

You forgot to mention the one flaw those other drivers have compared to a traditional, large coax -- they lack size. If someone isn't used to the magic of larger drivers, their strengths are usually stunning enough that their weaknesses can go unnoticed for a good, long time. The 604, for all of its weaknesses -- its many, many, horrible weaknesses -- has some unmatched strengths.

In short: I doubt that Brian was seduced by any exotic branding. While I probably wouldn't buy the Shindo 604 (I've never spent that much on a car), I can understand how a person could fall in love with it.

 

I see where you're coming from and that would make sense. Surprisinly though, the lack of lower end authority for it's size driver is poor. Perhaps there is some magic in the cabinet design and crossover (of Shindo's version I should say)?

 

So what type of music would expose these weaknesses?

I heard the Shindo 604's for about an hour. Warmed up with some Chet Atkins then 2 tracks off Depeche Mode's "Violator" (Sweetest Perfection and Personal Jesus), then listened to half of Ziggy Stardust, and a bunch of Kraftwerk. All had substantial, musical bass (I felt).

The Depeche Mode started as you guys describe, relaxed bass, but after Matt made some adjustments at the back of the speaker, we listened again and it all rocked. Then listened to the other tracks mentioned.

Not trying to sound defensive, but everyone here is commenting on Alnico speakers in general, but haven't heard the Shindo implementation, at least that is my understanding. I didn't hear what you guys are describing, but, like I said, I didn't spend 5 hours with them either.

 

Mark Knopfler -- Speedway at Nazareth. Set the speaker flat and give it a try.

Grateful Dead -- Darkstar. Jerry's voice seems to aggravate any annoyances with a phasey horn. If you can't drift off to sleep to this, it's wrong.

Stina Nordenstam - Parliament Square (Knife Remix). If there's a problem with synthetic bass, it will show up.

Carlos Nakai - Song for the Morning Star. That flute is torture if the crossover is anything like a standard Altec circuit.

Yeah, but you did ask for generalized discussion, too. We're like genies. We'll give you what you asked for, not what you actually want!

 

Hilarious! Thanks.

 

I've owned an (ceramic magnet) Altec 604 based speaker - the UREI 813A - for a number of years. They have their negatives - as noted above - the crossover point between the horn and the large 15" driver is a bit rough. UREI went out of their way with the foam covered horn, time-alignment, and crossover design to reduce this issue as much as possible. But some graininess is still there. A good amp and front-end, however, really helps. Cheap solid-state amps and a cruddy CD player will blow out my ears while a turntable and tube amp is the way to go with this speaker.

I have also heard the very rare "no-letter" UREI 813 which uses Alnico drivers. The midrange and top-end is improved over the ceramic version; having less grain and a cleaner sound.

Of course the UREI 813A has a huge cabinet and a 15" Eminence woofer - needless to say lack of bass is not an issue. This speaker excels at dynamics with a capital D. It can also - with the right gear and recording - throw a nice wide soundstage with plenty of depth.

 

I cannot reasonably attribute any particular sonic qualities to alnico magnets in drivers. Such magnets were used in a lot of older drivers, many of which sound great even today. The fact that there are modern drivers that still use alnico, when there are a lot of other magnet material choices that have technical advantages, does say something. I own a pair of speakers that uses both modern and a very old drivers. The twin 12" woofers are modern drivers that have alnico magnets. The midrange compression driver that came with the speaker also utilized alnico magnets. I have replaced the compression drivers with Western Electric 713 B drivers; I don't know what the magnets are made of, but, it is probably alnico. Absent hearing the same system with some other kinds of magnets, I can only generalize that systems where particular sonic qualities are considered paramount--clarity, lively sound at lower volumes, great dynamics--often do employ alnico drivers.

These same qualities are also found with drivers employing field coils for their magnetic structure. I like field coils, but the power supply is both a boon and a bane (added complication, or versatility, of adjusting the voltage to change the sound; more chances for something to go wrong). I particularly like field coils when used with a really good tube power supply, like a Tungar.

I have only briefly heard the DeVore and Shindo systems, but, I do like that particular sound. The emphasis is on getting the upper bass and midrange right, even if it means coming up a bit short on extension at the frequency extremes. There is a pretty big, but somewhat underground, world of speakers that cater to this sort of sensibilities, some being "modern" designs and others utilizing old drivers or reproductions of old drivers. Modern companies include the likes of Trenner and Friedl and Classic Audio. Various companies use spectacularly expensive new drivers base on old technology (e.g., ALE drivers, Goto drivers, Feastrix drivers). A few companies make reproductions of very old designs (e.g., Line Magnetics and G.I.P. make Western Electric/Jensen reproductions). When properly implemented, these old, or old technology, drivers can be used to create FANTASTIC systems.

 

The one thing that would turn me off on the Shindo speakers, is that I wouldn't want a speaker that I needed to make adjustments to in order to listen to specific types of music. The only adjustment I'd want to make speakers is their positioning. Anything else just seems like extra work.

 

To me, speakers like the Shindo and the DeVore, because they are not overly lean and analytical, tend to be an easy and nice match to a wide range of music. The fact that the DeVore has controls that allow someone to be hyper-critical and allows matching settings to specific music does not mean that such constant adjustment is necessary. I have speakers that also allow for all kinds of matching (it has level controls for all three drivers, including an infinitely variable L-Pad control on the midrange). I use it to get a good overall setting and I don't bother to change settings for different music.

 

Only the Shindo speakers have the controls. DeVore speakers do not, but still sound fantastic.

 

Yup, sorry I meant to say that the Shindo has controls. Both should sound great with all kinds of music. Perhaps music with really deep bass (synthesizer music, organ music with deep pedal notes) might be shortchanged a bit, but I personally can live with that.

The other thing to consider is that these speakers, and others like them, can be used with lower-powered amplifiers. To me, many of the very best sounding amps are lower in power. My speakers are 99 db/w efficient and I run them with either a 6 watt parallel single-ended triode amp or a 5-watt pushpull amp. I have also gotten good sound out of these speakers with a low-powered First Watt solid state amp. Whether the "secret sauce" is the type of speaker or it really is the amplifier, in any case, it is the combination of high efficiency speakers and low-powered amps that have delivered the best sound for me.

 

Brian, have you listened to any of your favorite music on some more conventional speakers ALONGSIDE the Shindo's and DeVore's? I only say this as, having listened to the DeVore Orangutans myself, I find these types of speakers lacking with electronic music and some of your other source material. I guess I'd be looking for a more conventional speaker design if it were me.

 

I've listened to a ton of conventional speakers. I haven't found any that were "special" to my ears, even really expensive conventional speakers. Not that I've heard it all, but the first time I heard the DeVores, there was something special about the tone that really appealed to me.

 

Fair enough. Just curious.

I really like them too, honestly. They just KILLED with combo jazz and string quartets. I'd love to have a pair for JUST Jazz and classical. Just didn't find that they'd "rock" with the best of them, IMHO. Not enough pace, and some congestion with cluttered rock recordings. To each his own.

 

Did you listen to Amnesiac (Radiohead)? There is some great ear candy on that album that can give a system a healthy workout. Switching from Sonus Faber and tubes to Revel and solid state really made albums like Amnesiac pop out to my ears. Of course, not every album has the low end of Amnesiac. Mezzanine by Massive attack is another good one.

 

I only mention this in case it enhances anyone's understanding. In the guitar amplifier realm, alnico is thought to have pleasing characteristics due to the fact that alnico (Aluminum Nickel Cobalt) is conductive, whereas ceramic is not. This is thought to alter the Q of the speaker load in a musical way. Don't shoot the messenger.

I personally use both alnico and ceramic speakers in instrument amplifiers. In that context, alnico speakers generally handle less power and generally seem warmer, sometimes to a fault. Ceramic speakers are generally more structured and efficient but can sound harsh.

 

That was my feeling on the DeVores too. But they were a lot better with the Shindo equipment. The tone went to another level and they seemed to rock out just fine, though I didn't have any real "thick" or "cluttered" rock (The Cure's "Disintegration" is my goto album to test that, but I didn't have it with me).

That said, I'm doing the Shindo 604 speakers, in part, because I felt that while the 0/96's with the Shindo equipment was a big upgrade over my current setup, the big Shindo's got me to that extra special, gut-punching level. Which is why I find it somewhat odd that Alnico speakers have a reputation for not having good bass.

Matt has said repeatedly that these aren't designed to go down to 30Htz, but are designed to deliver solid, musical bass which is what I heard.

 

The tone on guitar through the Shindo's was downright magical. I guess that's what really drew me to them. I only found out later that they are prized as guitar amp speakers. I can hear why.

 

What general price range are you aiming for? Try to borrow and demo at home. There must something to the experience of relaxing in your own familiar space because I'm of the view that any gear will sound different.