Any tips to improve imaging?

I sit about 9 feet from my speakers which are about 6-7 feet apart from each other and slightly toed-in. I played with their positioning for a couple of days when I got them and settled on where they are now as the best-sounding location to my ears, but I can't help but wonder if there's a better choice.

Do any of you guys use any methods (scientific or otherwise) besides just your ears to determine the best location for stereo imaging of your speakers?

 

Blurred imaging is caused by early reflections in the room. I think your speaker placement may be okay. Now you should think about some acoustic treatment. Check out some acoustic books or internet sites. It actually helps a lot.

I'm sure someone else has some advice on this.

 

I found that I got the best results from here at Cardas.

 

There's a lot more to imaging. If your ears found that to be a preferred position for the speakers, you probably won't make improvements by moving them, unless something else in the room has changed. But you can get better imaging by isolation of your upstream components, particularly your front end. Also, attention to power can help. Are you using any line conditioners or power cords. I find the monster conditioners can give pinpoint imaging that closes up the soundstage whereas the PS Audio power plant really opens things up. A good aftermarket power cord on your amp is worth checking out. You also could make improvements in imaging by upgrading your preamp to something tubelicious like VAC's preamp.

 

I have the same problem. I have too much stuff in my listening room including but not limited to a big ass TV between the speakers. I had to draw a line on that one. I know it hurts my sound but my favorite thing is to watch a ball game with the sound off and listen to music. It's a trade off.

It's something I think about a lot actually and frankly I just don't have an answer. For example: I have dimmers on all the lights in the room which is great for movies but that's also not supposed to be good for sound.

Best imaging I ever heard was at Bencanas' (Ben Bone) house. You close your eyes and you would swear to God that whoever it is you're listening to is standing right in front of you. It's incredible. Still I got to tell you, and I think that Ben will back me up on this, that Ben's room is about one thing and one thing only and that's tunes. He goes down there every night for hours and it's him and his chair and his music. Guy goes through a phono cart a year. Still he's not having any parties down there. There's no room. His system is flat out in your face. Hopefully he will see this thread and chime in.

Keep tweeking!

Best-
Norm

 

A friend has methodically positioned his speakers over the years to achieve holographic imaging, and surprising back-to-front depth. As yesman pointed out, cancelling early reflections is crucial.

You get four bounces from each speaker that need to be addressed. The most important, to me, seemed to be the near-wall reflection. I'd treat those with a mobile makeshift room treatment, such as an acoustic tile, and replace it with something more permanent and aesthetically pleasing should you like the results. Then you can use the makeshift treatment to test other hot spots before committing to the expense of professional treatments.

The tendency, as my my audiophile buddy would admit, is to overtreat the room at first, only to gradually remove some of the panels, absorbers, etc., in order to liven up the sound, so be judicious before laying down the long green.

 

You mentioned fow far away each speaker is from each other, but you did not mention fow far they are from the rear wall. Just like the other guys were saying, the issue with deffraction is the biggest issue, and for good sound imaging your speakers should be way away from any wall surfaces. Move your speakers out about 2 feet from the rear wall (at the very least), and about 4 to 5 feet from the side walls. I think you will hear a significant difference. This advice comes Robert Harley THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO HIGH END AUDIO, and I have been living with my speakers positioned like this for about 23 years, it makes a world of difference.

 

How about pointing the speakers at the listener? That has been a fave since the seventies as I remember and I don't know whether this is wrong or not! My speaks are Dynaco A-25s so anyone with an answer - don't hesitate to report back.

 

I use "near-field" monitor speakers, but I only sit about 5 to 6 feet from the speakers.

 

Ditto !

Both my N-F-M speakers are 12 feet apart. I sit in the middle, the speakers are tilted slightly to my ear.

 

Here's an interesting link:

Principles and Techniques of Speaker Placement

 

Rocky, most of the time yes, however if you recall, Steve uses Tannoys (IIRC) that he's said "must" be placed against the back wall. There are exceptions to every rule.

 

Oh, Gary, you're speakers aren't too big for your room! This guys speakers are too big for his room!

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/bbs/equipment/28981.html

 

Hey Gary. I can store them at my place. They can keep my matching set company. I would even consider surround sound then!

 

Thanks guys for the information and links. There's really only so much I can do with the actual placement of the speakers. I don't have the luxury of being able to have equal distances from the side walls no matter what, and it wouldn't be very practical to move them any farther from the front wall (approx 15") because of walkway issues. I could move them a little closer together or farther apart, or toe them in more, but other than that there's little else I can do with placement. Room treatments are something I can look at too, but I'm sure I'd need a professional to help me figure out what my offending frequencies are.

I have a couple of things in common with the guy in Pinknik's link, whereas I have a lot of crap lining the side walls between the speakers and myself, and also an opening (doorway and passthrough) into another room right behind my head. Are either or both of these inherently bad?

Another question I have is what type of music do you listen to when placing your speakers? Certain instruments or genres, vocals, things that pan back and forth, or fairly stationary sounds?

 

It might be easier for me to just borrow a camera, Gary. I'm not sure how well I'd do at a diagram.

 

Your speakers are to close together. Most people think that the closer together the speakers are the better the imaging. This actually reduces the soundstage width and cramps the images together. If you are sitting 9 feet from the speaker they should be spread apart that distance at least. You will be amazed at the difference in imaging and soundfield depth.

 

What was that? Secret Nauga code?

 

Code:

 

              |
              |      |
______________|      |+++
|                       |
|      sp        sp     |
|                       |
+                       |
+                       |
|                       |
|                       |
|          cccccc       |
________________________

Just guessing. It's hard because the message window is not in a fixed width font. You can draw in notepad with the font set to Courier or something similar, then copy and paste bewteen two CODE tags.

 

Some valid points have been made in this thread about imaging and soundstage. If you've been happy with the positioning of the speakers, perhaps you'd prefer not to mess with things too much.

The importance of minimizing early reflections has been mentioned and keeping the speakers away from the side walls is helpful here. Equally important are the reflections from the floor and ceiling. Also, as Ron Stone said regarding room treatment: "The tendency, as my audiophile buddy would admit, is to overtreat the room at first". One way to keep treatment to a minimum is to use 'the mirror method'. Simply sit in your listening seat and ask a friend to hold a mirror against the walls, floor and ceiling (you'll need a tall friend). Wherever you can see the speaker drive units in the mirror, that's where you stick the absorbent material (if required). This saves overdoing things and killing the room.

Finally, let's be clear here. Many speakers don't image well. Phase problems with crossovers and incorrect driver alignment will mess up imaging, as well the different dispersion characteristics of the various drivers. Any cabinet vibration or speaker resonance will also draw attention to the speakers and interfere with the illusion of soundstage, so the coupling between the speakers and the floor and the stand (for stand-mounts) also needs attention.