Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Metoo, Apr 8, 2005.
Yeah, especially his singing
I like the Kinks together with The Beatles and the Zombies.
These three are my Top 3 British Invasion bands.
My top three favourite Kink's songs are:
1) Tired Of Waiting For You
2) Well Respected Man
3) Waterloo Sunset
His singing career in my country lasted from about 1989 to about 1991. Baywatch is still going strong on the reruns, though.
I'm having that problem with older movies myself.
From a recent post in Neil Ottenstein's Kinks mailing list. This is reportedly from Shel Talmy:
Okay, recording the band. "You Really Got Me" was done in mono because
the head of Pye at that time was a complete non-music man/major jerk named
Louie Benjamin who insisted on charging me for the studio costs and so as
I was very inexperienced at getting a 'reasonable' contract and on the
hook for the costs, did it the least expensive way, mono. Naturally,
after it became a huge hit, the moron was told by his (very intimidated)
staff that the 'new' thing was to do a stereo recording and so he
'relented' and started picking up the recording costs so I could do
So from then on I recorded in 3 and 4-track at Pye #2 studio, the smaller
I guess I should also mention that it never took a lot of time to record
because as I'm sure everybody now knows, at that time the longer a band
took to record, the less they were regarded, as only 'bad' bands took
I'd love to remix and re-master the stuff I did but I don't think the
tapes are available any more. Pye was the most disorganized label I've
ever dealt with and I've heard from several sources that the tapes
'disappeared', and any re-releases are from 3rd and 4th generation tapes,
and not the multi-tracks.
Proufo: How do I join this mailing list?
It's a great mailing list!
Drop an e-mail to the admin. at: email@example.com
Two additional messages from (reportedly) Shel Talmy.
Re your recent messages about who did what on "You Really Got
Me", Jimmy page and related subjects, wild speculation etc.
As I produced You Really Got Me, and the next few years worth of
Kinks, I can tell you absolutely that Page did not do the solo,
Dave did, that Bobbie Graham played drums on that single and the
first LP, where I used Page as a rhythm guitarist along with John
Lord on organ and Perry Ford on piano.
Now i obviously don't expect these "revelations" to stop all the
various people writing in, who absolutely know "the real truth".
After all, what do I know apart from being there, being the
producer and hiring the musicians and studio...But what the hell,
it's worth a try.
I really hate to ruin anybody's fun/life, but Dave played ALL the
solos on all the Kinks records I produced, where there was a
In answer to Joe Brennan as who got paid for sessions, I found
the Kinks through their manager Robert Wace, then the Ravens,
and brought them into Pye. My first mistake in my very young,
very naive days, was to have Pye sign them instead of me. Oh
well, we all make mistakes and I made a bunch.
The president of Pye at that time was a bastard named Louis
Benjamin, who as the expression goes, treated nickels like
manhole covers, and in the spirit of that philosophy, charged me
for session costs, deducted before I received my royalties.
At that time, the practice was not to pay the members of the band
for playing on their own sessions. I was not privvy to what the
Kinks management worked out with Pye for advances or payments, so
can't really comment, but the musicians I hired got the going
union rate which was around 7 pounds, 10 shillings for a 3 hour
session, and that was part of the budget I was being charged for
and paid in front by Pye.
Because of this Drakonian policy on Benjamin's behalf, I decided
that the first couple of records were recorded mono, as that was
cheaper than multi-track, and I really couldn't afford to be
charged for more money at that time, as my expenses were high and
my royalties coming sometime in the future.
After damn near everybody told that jerk Benjamin that stereo was
necessary, it finally dawned on him that he'd have to rework
charging me if he wanted multi-track, and eventually that
happened. Now I know I'm rambling but will try to get to the
Session guys were paid in cash then by a "fixer". The one we all
used then was a man named Charlie Katz, who would come around
sometime during the session to pay the guys. If anybody has
records of the transactions, I would imagine Katz has them,
assuming he's still around. Pye was amazingly disorganized then
and got worse. I can tell you that when Rhino was going to
release the Kinks packages they never found first generation
master tapes, because Pye had lost them, or flushed them down the
toilet or whatever.
Does this clear anything up, or obfuscate it even more? I
suppose I will learn that from the next batch of mail.
Can anyone tell me the name of the CD that has "Victoria" on it (a CD that isn't one of their greatest hit compilations) ?
ARTHUR...a must-own album if there ever was one. A pinnacle of Ray's art. Go get it, now!
Can't argue with that!
When I was in my senior year in my high school, I had a physics teacher that conducted an experiment using Schoolboys in Disgrace. For one hour our class borrowed the band room and we listened to Schoolboys in its entirety. I remember how much the lyrics had a profound effect on me during that time.
Listen to lyrics and remember your school days. If you a child or know of someone in high school play them the cd and ask them to pay close attention to Ray's lyrics. I sure did that one afternoon long time ago when my physics teacher played Schoolboys in Disgrace.
Hey Jack, did you wiggle your backside and start studying?
every time I see that avatar of Grace Kelly my heart misses a beat - my all time favourite woman.
Anothet interesting posting from the Kinks' mailing list. This is from one Russel Smith. While he destroys his credibility by indicating the Ray was involved, he seems, at least, to care.
I have now been involved with the Castle re-issues of the Kinks Pye
recordings on and off for some considerable time (more on, than off,of
late) So quite obviously I've been interested in the varied reaction,
from all quarters to the re-issues. However, I suppose the most
important feeback, I believe is the opinions of the fans. So therefore I
have read the digest over the last few months with great interest,
sometimes with faint amusement, sometimes with amazement, but allways
with a sense that all opinions are valid (I guess every ones got there
own ideas what should and should'nt be included on these re-issues)
To be absolutely honest, it was never my intention to reveal the
reasoning of why the re-issues ended up the way they did. Hopefully the
re-issues would peak for themselves. However, various circumstances
changed my view on remaining silent. Because these re-issues are a
combination of various peoples efforts not just mine alone. What is set
out below is just my own view of how "it all panned out"
Before I start in earnest, a few points must be made clear and a few
misconceptions laid to rest, namely:
Ray Davies had full and absolute artistic control of the project,
something that cannot be said of previous "releases" of the Pye back
The Pye/Castle archive is NOT chocked full of long lost gems and
unreleased lost albums!! In fact the cupboard is remarkable bare, so to
speak.Pye records was a very frugal company particulary during the
period the Kinks were signed to the label. Once the production/cutting
masters for any particular recording was deemed complete, the session
multi-track tapes in most cases were wiped ready for re-use.
Unfortunately to compound this loss what Kinks multi-tracks did survive
appear to have been destroyed when Pye's Mitcham wharehouse went up in
flames. I'm also lead to believe before the fire desroyed these tapes,
they where not particulary well looked after, so had the survived it is
likely possible that some of the tapes may not have been in a useable
Literally what survives on multi-track today is an absolute handful of
recordings. The vast majority of the tracks for this re-issue programme
were remastered from the original 1/4" production/cutting masters. The
only tracks sourced from multi-track where Mr. Reporter;Little
Women;Lazy old Sun and Mr Shoemakers Daughter.
I would further point out that the vast majority of the
alternate/unreleased tracks did not originate from from the Pye/Castle
archive, In fact they were liberated from a number of disperate sources
from around the world.
I can assure everyone, every avenue was explored as thoroughly as time
permitted, every track available was looked at for possible inclusion.
The reason why the first 7 albums feature the mono mix, is quite
simple. That is the way that Ray and the Band meant them to be heard.
Most of the stereo mixes from this period, where carried out by the
in-house engineers, sometimes with scant regard for the bands wishes (it
is maybe possible that the band where not even present at these mixing
sessions). The only probable exception may have been the Village Green
album and subsequent recordings where more care has been paid to the
It's just in the rush to stereo in the'70's record companies
(presumptously) on our behalf believed "we" wanted to hear the stereo
recordings!! So it is these recordings "we" have become 'au-fait' with
over the years.
These re-issues have not been thrown together as some have suggested. A
lot of care and thought have been put into them one way or another.
However, the overiding factor in each case has been put into preserving
the integrity of the original album. Also time was taken out to track
down and speak to the original engineers and various other staff
involved in recording the band during the Pye contract.
One should also not lose sight this is primarily a album re-issue
programme. It was never a fore gone conclusion that every single and
B-side be included,although it would be nice to do so, tracks would not
included at the expense of the integrity of the the original album. Also
preference was given were possible to including different material
rather than retread ground trodden by the 101 previous other
I'll quickly run through some specific points that I've seen raised
The first five re-issues
The last second omission of some of the bonus tracks on these CD's was
really a sound quality issue, what sounds fine on a isolated reference
CD-R is a different matter when placed on a production CD . There is a
sound quality threshold that really as far as the Kinks are concerned,
that can't be breached. Every one including me would love to see more
unreleased rercordings, but this shoul'nt be at the expense that
compromises the integrity of the the original album.
Comparison with the Who live at Leeds is grossly unfair,quite
co-incedently I work with a chap who claims he was at the show the Who
recorded at Leeds University in Feb 1970, I have no reason to disbelieve
him, as we both live in the Leeds area (He is also my boss!) He
recollects the Who playing for the thick end of three hours that night!
Conversely if you were to add the running time of the the TWO shows the
Kinks played back then on April 1st 1967 at the Kelvin Hall, it would
been just lasted over the hour.
I'm believe I'm right in saying the only track not included on the
original album that the band played that night was Beautiful Delilah.
So the original album, was near enough what you would have got had you
attended a Kinks show back then.
Efforts were made to track down other live recordings of the period
Paris O'lympia show from April 23rd 1967 (Thought to have been a back up
recording for Kelvin Hall) It now appears doubtful this show was ever
Show two from Kelvin Hall (As previously mentioned the band played two
shows that night)
The original undubbed masters
None of the above were found, Although they might have been of interest.
However, if they had been found it is unlikely that they would have
revealed anything new about the Kinks live circa 1967.
The Village green Preservation Society
Thoughts were intially to make this a 2CD set, this was the case well
into production of the first five re-issues, then for a variety of
reasons it was reduced to a single CD. Had the 2CD set option been taken
no doubt various demo's,outakes and all of the associated 45's from the
period would have wound up on the bonus disc.
When the decision to go with only a single disc was made, it was to late
to return tracks like "She's got everything" to there rightful place
(Kink Kontroversy) The two 'missing' Dave 45's should end up on Dave's
European Anthology,in due course.
In my opinion how do you treat one of the most influential albums in the
Kinks canon? To have the original album followed by demo's and half
finished tracks did'nt seem appropriate, as did including the various
singles of the period (Days excepted) the musical compatability would'nt
have been there. It just seemed logical to include the stereo 12 track
Even though the mono album was likely as not the band preffered edition,
it's distribution was limited, only ever getting a release in the UK,
where the conversion to stereo was quickly gathering pace at the time.
With the consequence that the mono version was promptly lost never to
been seen again until now (testiment to this is the price the original
mono copies are now fetching on the collectors market) The mono mix is
distinctly different from the more well known stereo mix this
counterpoints nicely with the alternate mixes, different track/running
order of the 12 track edition of the album. I'm sure most people will
find something new and different in this re-issue,particulary our
overseas friends were the mono edition was never released in the first
place. Also the running time pretty much uses up the time available on a
single CD, giving excellant value for money.
The reason the mono single mix of Shangri-la was omitted was that this
particular track exhibits some truely awful distortion towards the end
of the song (If you have the original 45, it can be heard distinctly)
the remastering process only amplified the distortion, also for once
there was a surfit of bonus material, more than could be fitted on a
single CD, so it was decided to drop this track (Incidentley also
omitted at the eleventh hour was a alternate mono mix of Australia) in
favour of the wonderful stereo mixes of Plastic Man and the two Dave B
Lastly lets put to bed the mystic about Daves Hold my Hand demo, the
sound quality is "Bloody awful" and no amount of remastering could
restore it to a useable level, bearing in mind it would have to be
remastered from vinyl in the first place!!!
Kinks part one:
Contary to popular belief there is not endless amount of unused tracks
for this album, obviously there are some, but in general pretty much
what was recorded was used. The reason for the non inclusion of the Lola
B side Berkeley Mews, was like She's got everything was not included on
the VGPS. It was not musically in sympathy with the rest of the
album.Berekeley Mews was in fact recorded circa the VGPS sessions, once
again had the VGPS ended up as a 2CD set, it may have well ended up on
the bonus disc.
The master for the mono single mix Apeman has been lost, despite a
exhuastive search including checking all the stereo masters in case it
had been misfiled,However, the search proved fruitless, it could not be
found. So the reason for it's omission is simple it no longer exists as
a master (so hang on to your old blue Pye 45!)
There was also some intial thoughts of trying to add some live tracks
from the period to extend the bonus selection of this album, but none of
sufficient quality were to be found.
The intention with Percy from the outset was to make it far more
expansive, Castle went to a lot of trouble and expense to liberate the
actual film soundtrack recordings, unfortunatley the vast majority of
these particular recordings were riddled with distortions of some
description or had unaceptable shifts in levels,and even more
frustratingly the tapes where of a format that was very difficult to
rectify these shortcomings, despite the best endeavours of the remaster
engineers to weave thier magic, they could not rectify
these shortcomings(Incidentley I believe the remaster engineers on the
whole have done an exceptional job with the re-issue programme)
The bonus's you have on this CD are what tracks the engineers managed to
So there you have it
The barrel has well and truely been scraped, as far as the Pye
recordings go, of course there is still the odd track still left, mainly
those which came to light to late in the day to be included on these
re-issues,no doubt a handful of more unreleased tracks will come to
light in the years to come. But in my opinion nearly all the unreleased
recordings of any worth(in decent quality) are now out. I must admit I
do find it somewhat frustrating when various song titles are banded
around, "they should have included that, they should have
included this" but believe me when I say every track that could be got
hold of was looked at and considered, and if its not included there is
reason for it not being there. (mainly a sound quality reason!)
The re-issues have now taken these CD's out of the bargin bin so to
speak and hopefully put some prestiege back into to these classic albums
(this has been lacking for to long in my opinion) The packaging
and content compares extremely well indeed with other re-issues,all at
mid price too! (remember the Who re-issues sold at full price intially)
Also I have just seen the new Pretty Things re-issues, although
excellant I believe they do not show the attention to detail these Kinks
So my advice is to sit back switch on your Hi Fi and ENJOY!
Pablo - Thanks very much for these last few postings. This is a whole lot more than I ever knew about the Pye recordings.
That is sad. Not even the 1985 Greatest Hits CD used the mono mix.
Thank you for posting this info. Lots to read there. While most of the Castle 98 releases have some very wonky EQ choices (a nearly complete lack of bass and jacked up high end)
I listened to "Arthur" yesterday and was reminded that this is one reissue that they nearly "got right". While still slightly bass-shy, they seem to have spent more time with this one. The music, of course, is exemplary.
I think this has more to do with the fact that Arthur was recorded and mixed much better than the previous albums.
I prefer the PRT CD. No noise reduction, more dynamics.
I listened carefully to the '98 Castle reissue of Arthur and could detect no use of noise reduction. Are you sure this one has it? I'm familiar with the recording history of The Kinks 60's material and understand the differences in recording technique on this album. My initial post was a comment on just the mastering of the disc compared with some of the other '98 reissues (which IMO are an abomination).
Except for the mess they made on the stereo "This Man He Weeps Tonight". It is supposedly fixed on the reissue of the Castle 98 but id doesn't sit too well with me to have to buy another copy of this CD so I can have a decent stereo version of this song on CD .
For a band that ceased recording 35 years ago The Beatles are EXTREMELY popular among young people. Trust me. Most music fans in their 20's and 30's get it. We aren't quite as culturally bankrupt as some of you older guys would like to believe
No need to rebuy the 1998 Castle. Get the stereo version in excellent sound quality off ebay on The Great Lost Kinks Album boot and you'll get lots of other goodies with it!
When listening again this week, I was reminded of the awful stereo mix of "This Man He...".You can almost hear a bass playing (or are those the bass strings of Dave's guitar?) but you can 't feel it. And the percussion? Just some tambourine being tapped in the background. So this mix was corrected on a later pressing? I'm glad they fixed it but it irks me too that I have to buy the disc again to get it.
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