Anyway to determine the generation of cassette tapes?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Om, Jul 10, 2015.

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  1. Om

    Om Make Your Own Kind Of Music Thread Starter

    Location:
    Boston, USA
    I've come across 100's upon 100's of dead sound board tapes ranging from '68-'95. Some are Maxel UDXL C90's, Maxel UD's, UD XL I's, and UD XL II's. Anyway to tell a first generation apart from the others? Anyway to analyze the tapes to tell how many generations old they are? I obtained them from a friend of a friend who worked for the "Gratedul Dead Organization" if that helps. Who knows might be impossible to determine the exact but I think you can get a feel for if its an early or later generation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  2. RevolutionDoctor

    RevolutionDoctor Forum Resident

    Location:
    Gent, Belgium
    I guess that would be very difficult, because of the difference in age.
    A 1968 first generation would sound considerably worse than a third generation copy from 1995, due to quality improvements that were made on formulations and the recording decks.
    The quality that could be obtained in 1968 is miles apart from the sound quality in 1995.

    But there are other indicators :
    - does the physical appearance of the cassette originate from the era the concert was played ? A 1972 recording on a 1983 cassette is most certainly a copy..
    the site vintagecassettes.com could be helpful in finding out. But this doesn't guarantee it's a first generation recording.

    - are there any cuts in the recording ? taping a concert on a cassette almost always meant the cassette had to be flipped during the recording. It's better to do this between two songs with 5 or more minutes left on side 1 as to eliminate the risk of missing music on the recording during the tape flip. Hence, the beginning of the recording on side 2 of the cassette will not start on the beginning of side 2. No time to wind the tape when you're recording a live show.

    - compatibility due to azimut errors is a big issue with cassettes which always results in loss of high frequencies. This also happens when a first generation cassette is played back on a different deck than it was recorded on.
     
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  3. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    I guess on some level you can compare them to versions on the archives, or the flac versions thereof available for the better quality; but of course there was remastering involved with those, so unless you had a different generation to compare, done on the same deck, and so on and on; it is likely going to be more of a qualitative judgment.

    Admittedly, the little experience I have here was making tapes quite a long time ago on fairly pedestrian gear, but I have not heard of any stand-alone-from-comparisons test that can determine the generation. I will be interested if anyone has better information. I am sure there are folks who can look at spectral analysis, and after seeing or mastering hundreds and hundreds of these, I’ll bet they can get pretty close even by ear. If you really think you have something special I guess you could consider reaching out to some Dead tape mastering experts for some guidance. I am not sure how mind you, but people on this forum might have some connections.

    You might want to spend some time over here http://www.tapeheads.net/ I think another big factor, besides the ones mentioned already, is if dolby was used anywhere in the chain; again I am no expert but I think how that gets handled can be a deal breaker.

    Finally, I think the following from this taping etiquette article here should give you an idea what one would hone in on either by ear or by analysis. “Higher generation tapes will have progressively more hiss, and a host of other problems that can include: lack of bass and high frequencies, dulled transients, congested or otherwise blurred and indistinct sound. The cassette decks can play a major factor as well. A fifth generation tape that has only been through Nakamichi decks will likely sound better than a third generation tape that has gone through cheap dubbers.”
     
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  4. RevolutionDoctor

    RevolutionDoctor Forum Resident

    Location:
    Gent, Belgium
    It might also be good to know that these live recordings have been shared online for years (decades). In this process, the sound quality of the recordings of shows has been upgraded once a superior (lower generation) became available. In trading circles, it's also very probable that the original taper shared his recording online years after the recording was made. Because he/she still owns the original cassette and knows that the sound quality of that recording probably can't be surpassed.

    All this to say that it's very probable that the vast majority of the collection you have is available online at better or equal sound quality. Good luck in finding out because that would take a lot of time....
     
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  5. MonkeyMan

    MonkeyMan A man who dreams he is a butterfly?

    I don't think you should waste your time trying to figure out generations at this point. But I definitely would go through the online archive and see if you have some dates for which there aren't boards posted. Keep in mind that most shows that were released officially had the corresponding boards taken down from the archive. If this collection truly is from an insider, you might have a few boards that aren't "out" yet...
     
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  6. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    I agree, I am going to be surprised if you find much of anything that is better than what is on the archives etc., especially those by some of the good mastering guys like Charlie Miller, who correct edits, glitches, speed corrections etc.; there are so many good master reel to > dat out there now, maybe one added cassette gen in there at the worst. Anything I ever had paled in comparison; but you never know though, good luck.

    Edit: Good suggestion MonkeyMan, we would all like you to succeed with that one.
     
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  7. MonkeyMan

    MonkeyMan A man who dreams he is a butterfly?

    I should add that if you discover you do have any previously undistributed boards, you should get in touch with Charlie Miller to arrange a loan of the tapes to him, to ensure a very high quality digitization of the material. We would all be grateful...
     
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  8. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    Yes if you want it done right that is who you call.
     
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  9. Om

    Om Make Your Own Kind Of Music Thread Starter

    Location:
    Boston, USA
    the GD's archive.org collection is incredible, had no idea something to this extent existed. I'll let you know if I find anything special. Have a lot to go through! :)
     
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  10. Om

    Om Make Your Own Kind Of Music Thread Starter

    Location:
    Boston, USA
    Now a few of these tapes do not list the source. Should you be able to immediately tell an audience recording from a soundboard? Is it true you should not be able to hear the audience on a soundboard?
     
  11. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    You can hear audience on soundboards sometimes, it depends on any mics picking audience up, or say there was a specific mic pulling in audience to a track on the mixing board that was mixed onto the "soundboard" tape.

    I suppose it takes time to hear this, but an audience tends to give you a sense of hearing the music through air in a room first, or the instruments travel through the room to a pair of mics, with audience noise being a pretty equal part of that especially depending on how many people are whooping it up nearby the recording deck mics.

    Soundboards (sometimes those are PA mixes, so just a patch out of the FOH board that was mixing for the room; other times, like Betty Boards, the feed was split one to FOH, and another to a mixing board where it gets mixed for that tape, separate from FOH), tend to have instruments vocals etc. fill up the majority of the soundstage, and also there is less sense the music traveled through the air in the room before being picked up by mics.

    The great thing about the archives is you can hear the same show both ways. For example pick a show where you are unsure and try both sources.

    One that comes to mind for showing differences is 8-6-71 [considered by many the best audience tape ever]

    Aud here Sbd here

    Focus on the drum fills, just as one thing, in for example Cumberland Blues, for a good indicator of getting that soundboard direct instrument sound.

    Mtx here In a Mtx someone mixes and AUD and Sbd together; but you should not have one of these (leaving aside mid-80’s Healy matrixes; another story) as these were not done in the cassette days.
     
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  12. Om

    Om Make Your Own Kind Of Music Thread Starter

    Location:
    Boston, USA
    Perfect, thanks! 10,182 files in the archive is impressive. Is there anything left to find? Any missing shows, the holy grail that the community has been searching for.
     
  13. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
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  14. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Aud tapes generally sound muddy, distant and boomy.
     
  15. Popmarter

    Popmarter Forum Resident

    As a concerttaper myself I strongly suggest you make a posting on taperssection.com. Almost certain you will find people there that can tell you if and how valuable your collection is. I am not that familiar with the Dead but people there are. There is also a lot of knowledge about the gd archive. Feel free to contact me if the tapes need a good transfer to harddisc. I have Nakamichi Dragon/CR7 waiting for jobs like this :) Good luck.
     
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