AP Blue Note SACD vs. Audio Wave Blue Note XRCD: ? re titles

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Wie Gehts?, Feb 1, 2010.

  1. Wie Gehts?

    Wie Gehts? New Member Thread Starter

    I own a few of the McMaster Blue Note CDs, the MFSL gold CDs of Blue Train and Somethin' Else, and the four Audio Wave titles which are currently available. I gather that the AP series of reissues will comprise 50 titles, whereas the Audio Wave folks plan on issuing 25 titles at this time.

    My question is this: of the two series, which one contains more of the "important" and "seminal" Blue Note jazz releases? I know that "50 vs. 25" kind of skews the issue, but overall, if you had to choose between one of the two and are a lover of Blue Note jazz, which one would you choose (sound quality/packaging/format issues aside)? TIA.
     
  2. ashlee5

    ashlee5 Senior Member

    AW will eventually match AP in terms of number of releases. Both will have their shares of important titles but AP does seem to have most "basic" titles (Blue Train, Somethin' Else, Moanin', Go!, Midnight Blue, Idle Moments).

    :wave:
     
    joshm2286 likes this.
  3. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    I don't think you should decide based on the type of distinction you propose. Beyond the issue of subjectivity - what one person views as essential, another might not - personally I feel there are a number of essential titles in each series. For example in the AP SACD series you have Joe Henderson's PAGE ONE, Grant Green IDLE MOMENTS, the Miles and Cannonball title, etc. These are all-time classics. But then you have just as many such classics in the XRCD series, like COOL STRUTTIN' and SOUL STATION and TRUE BLUE and Shorter's JUJU and Dolphy's OUT TO LUNCH etc. It may be true that the AP series has more titles that were "big sellers" at the time of release, but with this much distance from the 1950s and 60s, that hardly matters.

    I'm betting when all is said and done, both series will continue for some time, and will end up reissuing literally dozens of gems in terms of musical quality.

    You could better base your choice on mastering style, because they are somewhat different sounding series...Steve does the AP SACDs, Alan Yoshida the XRCDs. I find both are outstanding and wouldn't want to be without any of these but they do sound a bit different, with Steve's having a characteristically softer high end and laid back sound, and Yoshida's having a bit more high end and a little more "in your face" kind of dynamics. Both are wonderful but they are different. My advice is:

    1) Either pick up one or two from each series and do listening comparisions and decide which mastering style you prefer and go with that series, OR

    2) Just cherry pick the stuff that looks interesting or by artists you know you like from each series...you don't have to buy them all unless you're a BN nut. For example personally I love Fred Jackson's HOOTIN' AND TOOTIN' date, which is an AP SACD, but I would objectively put it in the second tier musically. And same with some of the XRCD titles.
     
  4. Wie Gehts?

    Wie Gehts? New Member Thread Starter

    Thanks for your responses. Now, for a second question which may be somewhat sensitive to discuss on this forum. In another thread I recall a couple of negative remarks about the sound quality (possibly more to do with volume level than actual sound quality; I don't recall) of the AP hybrid SACDs. Do these concerns have any merit, and if so, do they apply to the redbook layer only, the hi-rez layer only, or to both? (I will be listening to redbook only.) Again, many thanks.
     
  5. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    I find nothing at all wrong with the AP SACDs, redbook or SACD layer. They sound superb, and are in fact probably the closest I have ever heard digital come to mimicking the sound of an LP pressing. When I have volume levels matched and A/B them with my AP 45 rpm vinyl counterparts which Steve and Kevin cut, they sound essentially IDENTICAL.

    I have said this all along, even when a few people were griping about these after they were released, and was therefore vindicated when Steve verified later here on the Forums that he and Kevin actually made the DSD masters for these titles at the EXACT SAME TIME as they were cutting the 45 rpm LP masters, using a signal splitter. I don't think he addressed the redbook layers but I am sure they were created similarly. The sources are IDENTICAL.

    The AP SACDs ARE recorded a little on the quiet side, so you do have to goose your volume level a bit to get full dynamics out of them, but it's not like I have to max my preamp out or anything like that.
     
  6. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    Having all the AP SACDs and Audio Wave XRCDs at this point, I honestly don't believe that any of the few complaints I've read in that other thread have any merit whatsoever. It is true that the AP SACDs are lower in overall volume than the XRCDs--but isn't that normally a good sign? In any event, the most serious complaint about them was made by a reviewer, who complained (if I recall correctly) about a boosted, brittle high end in comparison to the 45 rpm lps. Of all accusations one could possibly make about the SACDs, this may be the most puzzling possible, as their chief sonic characteristic is a "laid back" high end and overall organic sound. Steve himself mentioned that the exact same signal produced both the LPs and the SACDs simultaneously, so any sonic differences would be due soley to the format and one's equipment.

    My own sense, after comparing the two series, is that they sound very similar in terms of presence, clarity, and dynamic range, but the XRCDs are somewhat louder (though still with good dynamic range) and have a more prominent upper midrange. I suspect that the XRCDs may be closer to Rudy's originals (which apparently had a pronounced upper midrange boost), but the SACDs are more balanced and natural sounding (and I have been listening primarily to the redbook layer, as my redbook player is better than my current SACD player). Both sound fantastic to my ears!

    As to your first question, it seems to me that the SACDs have more absolute classics among them (Blue Train, Somethin' Else, and Moanin' in particular). But in general, their programs are VERY similar in terms of the artists and styles represented (especially since the aforementioned Wayne Shorter and Eric Dolphy albums are not in fact on the list of the first 25 Xrcds, and as far as I know the second set has not been officially announced--or have I missed something?) As DrJ said, it may be wise to simply cherry pick the titles you find most interesting from each series. In any event, I doubt you'll be disappointed!

    EDIT: I now see that DrJ addressed most of these same points, and I agree with him completely!
     
  7. ATR

    ATR Senior Member

    Location:
    Baystate
    AP has more of the titles I'd be interested in, but neither IIRC has the Bud Powell, Monk, or avant garde recordings that I consider to be the cream of the crop.
     
    Ă“doligie likes this.
  8. Wie Gehts?

    Wie Gehts? New Member Thread Starter

    Thanks so much to all who posted a reply. For the past several years I've been interested primarily in collecting Prestige and Riverside artists (along with Miles on Columbia and Ella, of course), although I do have a few BN CDs as noted in my original post. Unfortunately, my knowledge of Blue Note recordings is lacking. I was really hoping to see Ashley Kahn's new book about BN make it to publication to increase my knowledge in this important area of recorded jazz.

    75 (and possibly 100, if ashlee5's claim that Audio Wave will eventually expand their offering from 25 to 50 is true) titles at $30 apiece, plus shipping. An embarrassment of riches! I guess my personal savings goals will have to be scaled back a bit over the next year or two.

    One additional question: since I have Blue Train and Somethin' Else on MFSL gold, do I need to buy the AP versions? Are they that much better-sounding on redbook?
     
  9. Hazuki

    Hazuki Active Member

    Location:
    Japan
    I also love this album -- a surprise gift from sister-in-law. One thing to note: the number of bonus tracks also make it a "double-album".

    I'll be buying the Audio Waves XRCDs after they get past the half-dozen Music Matters titles I already have as 45s.
     
  10. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I have been very impressed with the Audio Wave XRCDs so far.
     
  11. therockman

    therockman Senior Member In Memoriam




    I gave away my MFSL copies of BLUE TRAIN and SOMETHIN' ELSE after hearing the SACD layer of the new Analouge Productions series.
     
    dennis the menace likes this.
  12. J.A.W.

    J.A.W. Music Addict

    The name is Analogue Productions.
     
  13. Both have great titles in the mix and both sound outstanding, I will certainly get all of the XRCDs and my guess is most of the SACDs.
     
    Joti Cover likes this.
  14. e630940

    e630940 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Canada
    They both have some very popular titles and deservedly so-they do need to sell!. Note:popular in classic BN is great stuff. MM has stressed though that theirs is mostly a 'labor of love' -I guess as opposed to a 'max-money making' exercise.

    Both being audiophile focused labels though IMO the choices are still determined by the perceived sound quality of the master tapes. This will likely disqualify some terrific titles (some of which have been discussed in other threads e.g. the Wayne Shorter SNE). It is ironic in a sense because such titles are the ones that really would need a lot of TLC. Blame it on audiophiles though as many will not buy unless the sound ratings are tops.
     
  15. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Aren't you running out of room yet? ;)
     
  16. ... that's the real challenge. :laugh:
     
    dennis the menace likes this.
  17. Wie Gehts?

    Wie Gehts? New Member Thread Starter

    Yes, but what about the redbook layer? I don't have/want the ability to play SACDs.
     
    joshm2286 likes this.
  18. TSmithPage

    TSmithPage Ex Post Facto Member

    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    I would suggest, if you have the finances and/or space in your system, you spring for a high quality Universal player that can play both CDs and SACDs, or if you absolutely love your CD player, add a supplemental SACD player. I resisted SACDs for years, but am happy I finally gave in. You are missing a lot of audio by sticking just to CDs, and Steve has mastered a ton of jazz SACDs.
     
    Dan Steele likes this.
  19. Wie Gehts?

    Wie Gehts? New Member Thread Starter

    Good suggestion. Haven't all of Steve's jazz SACDs been hybrids?
     
  20. TSmithPage

    TSmithPage Ex Post Facto Member

    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    They have. It might be worth auditioning an SACD player and comparing the redbook to the SACD layer of one of Steve's hybrids to see if adding an SACD player is worth it to you.
     
  21. I've owned 2 CD and the old RVG SACD of Blue Train, even the red book layer of the AP SACD sounds better than all the other versions I have owned.

    Even if you don't have an SACD player, the red book layer alone will sound excellent.
     
  22. Wie Gehts?

    Wie Gehts? New Member Thread Starter

    Blue Note enthusiasts, can you please post your "must have"/favorite titles (twenty or so from the fifty that AP will be releasing)? I'm looking for titles that no serious jazz collection should be without. Thanks!
     
  23. Pericles

    Pericles Forum Resident

    Location:
    Edmonton
    Sorry to threadcrap, but will EAC allow me to rip the redbook layer of the AP SACDs? I don't have an SACD and don't intend to get one and I listen to all my digital music through my computer and soon through a squeezebox. I would very much like to pick up some of these SACDs but only if I can rip the redbook layer. Please advise. Thank you.
     
  24. e630940

    e630940 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Completely personal picks, somewhat alphabetical- tough to pick only 20

    1-Cannonball Adderley - Somethin' Else
    2-Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers - Moanin'
    3-Kenny Burrell - Midnight Blue
    4-John Coltrane - Blue Train
    5-Paul Chambers - Whims of Chambers
    6-Kenny Dorham - Whistle Stop
    7-Dexter Gordon - Go
    8-Dexter Gordon - Dexter Calling
    9-Grant Green - Idle Moments
    10-Herbie Hancock - Maiden Voyage
    11-Freddie Hubbard - Hub-Tones
    12-Jackie McLean - Capuchin Swing
    13-Jackie McLean - Jackie's Bag
    14- Hank Mobley - Workout
    15-Hank Mobley - A Caddy For Daddy
    16-Hank Mobley - No Room For Squares
    17-Lee Morgan - The Sidewinder
    18-Lee Morgan - Lee-way (CD sound not as great IMO)
    19-Horace Silver Quintet & Trio - Blowin' The Blues Away
    20-Jimmy Smith - Back At The Chicken Shack
     
  25. ATR

    ATR Senior Member

    Location:
    Baystate
    I posted them long ago in a faraway thread when this whole business started.

    Blue Train/John Coltrane
    Volume 2/Sonny Rollins
    Go/Dexter Gordon
    Jackie's Bag/Jackie McLean
    Maiden Voyage/Herbie Hancock
    Hub-Tones/Freddie Hubbard
    The Sidewinder/Lee Morgan

    It's a short list. These are among the best Blue Note albums, IMO. There are plenty of others in the catalog, but they aren't in the series.
     
    joshm2286 likes this.

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