Not certain about the original locations of the masters, but Atlantic was a US company, so that may offer some insight. Both the Marino and Davis HOTH seem to be made from a copy. It seems the Marino PG may be from a better tape (at least in places) than the Diament or Davis, but I still haven’t done a detailed comparison. IIRC, Kashmir has issues on the Diament and Davis that aren’t present on the Marino.
Not Zeppelin, but the first friend of mine to get a CD player -- it was 1984 or thereabouts -- debuted it for me and some other guys with Machine Head. It was godawful, and all of us thought so. My newly digital friend never owned a turntable, and loved the lack of surface noise, but that early Machine Head was an rush job. It kept me from buying a CD player 'til 1992, and obviously stuck with any Zep vinyl I had 'til then. I even have the 6 LP version of the 1990 Marino box. I scooped up the Diament Zep I and Physical Graffiti a while ago, but still haven't gotten 'round to spinning 'em. Might do that soon, and will post in this thread when I do. But isn't it mostly the dynamic range/crankability that is what is most praised about the Diaments, or is it also straight, flat-out fidelity? Can I expect to hear all the guitar overdubs on "Ten Years Gone" more separately and clearly than on any Davis or Marino CD or vinyl?
The Diament HOTH has better separation and fidelity than the others. For the others I prefer, I just think they sound nicer/more natural. Interestingly, in the couple of cases where I don’t prefer the original CD, it’s the Marino that’s my preference. But for the most part, it does come down to mastering choices rather than some sort of inherent technical superiority.
Opinions will vary (perhaps an understatement when it comes to Zep CDs!), but IMHO for something as specific as clarity level of guitar overdubs on Ten Years Gone, I would say the most recent (John Davis) remastering is the clear winner. Ditto for The Rover, which as you know sounds like mud on the master tape; but Davis is about as clear as that track's ever going to get. In the perhaps-futile hope of heading off angry replies, I hasten to stress that I'm not saying the Davis PG is objectively better, or even that subjectively I find it better than the Diament in every way. Bonham's drums are amazingly clear and prominent on the Davis, but they have an outstanding, natural/organic sound on the Diament. After listening to the Diament PG all the way through and becoming acclimated to it, if you put the Davis PG on right afterwards, you might feel it sounds a bit compressed (which it is) and overcooked by comparison. For me, which version I play really depends on my mood that day. The Marino PG I've personally never been able to get into - the opening crash of Kashmir is so loud (relative to the other versions and the overall levels of the rest of the album with the Marino mastering), and at first that's cool, but it's due mostly to a midrange bump in EQ that grates on my nerves after a couple of minutes. But everyone's difference, and I agree with Luke that a lot of it comes down to preferred mastering style/approach. Oh, and RE Zep I, I like the Davis Zep I a lot - super-clean and IMHO very well-balanced. However, again, the Diament has a more organic sound. The Diament gives me more spine tingling responses on Page's monster guitar lines in Dazed and Confused, for example, while I find the Davis captures the beauty and clarity of Page's acoustic guitar on Babe I'm Gonna Leave you. YMMV.
The only reason I'm aware of the existence of the SH forums was the fact that I did a Google search long ago wondering why I couldn't crank up the Zeppelin CDs without getting tired of them quickly. I discovered phrases like "ear fatigue" but more importantly learned about the Barry Diament-mastered (and Joe Sidore) Zeppelin CDs from the 80s. I quickly snatched these up and found them much more enjoyable than the CDs I had (the Marino-mastered ones from the Complete Studio Recordings box set). They had a warmth to them and they weren't shrill sounding. Fast forward to the recent past and the Davis-mastered CDs were released. I had read that many preferred the Davis LZ III above all others so I picked this one up. I did a lot af A-B comparison at the time and although the Davis masters had a bit more clarity (IIRC) it wasn't a night and day difference. I always felt the Diament version of III was quite good. What really stood out though was the complete lack of low end on the Davis master compared to the Diament. The Diament master of Immigrant Song in particular sounded monstrous while the Davis version sounded anemic to me. Going back and forth between the two, I still preferred the warmth of the Diament and stuck with that. I had an email conversation with Barry back in March. I emailed him to ask him which Bad Company CDs he mastered and to tell him how much I love the work he did on the Zeppelin albums. He was extremely patient with my questions and forthcoming with his answers, and I thank him for that. While I have no intention of sharing the entire email chain here, there are a few tidbits of info that may clear up a few things. All of this may already be known here but there seems to constantly be questions as to what sources Barry used and whatnot so I thought I'd reprint a few things he said: "In other cases, when we didn’t have the original mixes, we did have straight (flat) copies of the original mixes - without any “mastering” mess, so in those cases, I’d use those. Yes, this was true for most of the Led Zeppelin CDs I mastered — all but the last couple of albums, where all we had were EQd limited copies." "For the Zeps, I was always told that the original tapes were either with Jimmy Page or that they had been lost." And in case anyone is interested: "I do recall having the 1/2" masters for the self-titled debut, and I also (believe I) did "Straight Shooter," "Run With the Pack," and "10 From 6." I'm just not sure about the others." "Sometimes I was credited for a disc I didn't do -- like one of the Yes CDs that sounds like it is under water. Other times, I was *not* credited for discs I did do." As I've stated before, I'm a big fan of the Diament-mastered Led Zeppelin (and Bad Company) CDs. I think they're much better than Marino versions and although the only Davis version I own is LZ III, I have heard a few others (PG in particular) and still prefer the Diaments.
He's said that, but he's also said he didn't remember the details clearly. And Zal Schreiber, who also handled the tapes, believed most were masters. In the case of Houses of the Holy, the Diament CD is likely the only one that actually used the masters.
Yes, it appears we know for sure that the Diament I, II, III, Houses, PG, and Presence were made from either the masters, or as Diament says flat/safety copies of the masters; while ITTOD and Coda were made from EQ'd (presumably LP) copy tapes. I don't know if we'll ever know which of those six pre-ITTOD albums Diament had the actual masters for, and which he had flat safety copies for. I certainly don't take issue with @lukpac 's listening-based claim that Houses sounds like Diament had the true master tape. All this stuff is subjective, but to me Houses is pretty clearly Diament's finest sounding Zep CD mastering of them all (with Zep I close behind). Given the muddiness of the bass on Diament's Zep II, and the lack of high end on his Zep III, I'd have no trouble believing Diament had copy tapes for those, but this is only speculation, since we don't know what the original master tapes sound like exactly; and we don't know what the c1986 digitization tools Diament had to work with did to the sound; and if a flat copy tape was made at 30ips on good, properly aligned equipment, then the copy tape could sound virtually indistinguishable from the true master anyway. On the subjective/listening front, I'd still maintain that the Sidore Zep IV is simply not a great-sounding CD, whatever the reason.
How does one identify an actual master tape vs a copy upon visual inspection if it is not clearly labeled?
Usually master tapes will have edits between songs and sometimes within songs, while copies usually won’t.
Barry made another comment stating that it was like pulling teeth to get the Masters at Atlantic and that that happened so rarely, those cases are burned in his memory.
Why do you take one person's word over another? Is there any evidence that Zal has better memory than Barry?
There's evidence that Houses of the Holy is in fact from the master. And in many cases there's nothing to suggest the original CDs were from tapes any different from the later releases.
I've never heard of Zal being referred to as the mastering engineer on the Zeppelin albums. I've only heard of him being present or in the room. Is it not correct that Barry Diament is the mastering engineer on the 80's Zeppelin CDs?
I know the answer to this question is within these 97 pages and probably elsewhere on the forum, but a search and a google search doesn't do the trick: I know how to identify a Zep CD from the 80s but among those how do you determine which ones were mastered by Sidore vs. Diamont?
He was involved with the '93/'94 releases, was around the tapes, and had discussions with the tape librarian about them. His recollections again: I don't consider that a final, definitive answer, especially in terms of the catalog as a whole, as we know different tapes were used for Houses of the Holy (Diament: master, others: EQ'd cutting copy) and possibly some others. But in terms of memory vs. memory, Zal seems to have a clearer recollection of things than Barry. And of course, there's the releases themselves, which for the most part don't suggest different tapes were used. Sidore mastered IV. Diament mastered the rest.
That's a can of worms! I think I'm on pretty solid ground in speaking for the majority/consensus opinion here as follows: The '80s CD is more dynamic (that one's a fact, actually) and laid-back sounding The 2018 CD is punchier and in some respects clearer The 2018 CD uses Kevin Shirley's 2007 mix, which is denser and a bit cluttered The '80s CD's mix is a bit airer and open (and in that respect can be said to be clearer than the 2018) The '80s CD's edits are not keyed to the movie's visuals, meaning you get a longer, better No Quarter and Whole Lotta Love The 2018 CD, because it's just a remastering of the 2007 CD's edits, hews to the pacing of the movie visuals, meaning that in addition to one brutal cut in No Quarter and one in WLL, you also get a few strange little cuts to make the audio match the visuals, resulting in a missed beat and such here and there For the other edits - edits that are the same, or similar, between the '80s and 2018 CDs, the 2018 CD generally has smoother edits (because the 2007 edits were done on a computer while the '80s CD is based on 1976 edits done manually in the analogue domain) Now, all that said, in terms of a final sonic verdict, I can only give you my opinion, which might be at odds with the majority here: The '80s CD always has sounded lifeless and anemic to me. It's super-crankable, but unlike some good crankable '80s CDs, I don't find that it gets much better even when you crank it up. The 2007 CD is too compressed and dense-sounding for me; I find it fatiguing, especially over the course of the entire concert The 2018 CD is, to me, clearly the best in terms of sonics. It's slightly more dynamic than the 2007, and the mastering moves John Davis applied (which I'm guessing were mostly subtractive rather than additive) make the sound more natural and laid back - not as laid back as the '80s CD, but on the other hand not anemic at all either. The sound is muscular and punchy, the instruments are more distinct than on the 2007 mastering, and, at least for me, there's no listening fatique, even when listening straight through the entire thing at once. So IMHO the 2018 is the clear winner from a sonic viewpoint, even though the '80s CD is the clear winner from an editing and mixing viewpoint when it comes to Celebration Day, No Quarter, and Whole Lotta Love.
I can certainly see his point of view but I don't understand why Barry's memory is being called into question. He was the one who mastered the original CDs and he said to me specifically that he had copies. He went on to say that original mixes were very hard to come by and he remembers those specifically but that the Zep tapes were not among them. Also, I was under the impression that Zal was present during Barry's mastering...which it seems he wasn't. He is going by what tapes were available to him for the 93/94 remastering and how they physically looked to him and the librarian and what boxes they were stored in. While the comment about splices is interesting, I'm going to stick with the opinion of the only guy involved with the early 80's Zep CD masters...and that's Barry Diament. I still don't know why his memory is being questioned considering when there is something he's not sure of (i.e., some of the Bad Company albums), he has specifically stated he's not sure. On this topic, he seems pretty certain.
Besides all of the things I've already mentioned, he has called his own memory into question a number of times. Such as: As above, he has stated he isn't sure about the LZ tapes. And as I stated, it's not simply a matter of one word against another. The original HOTH CD definitely seems to come from the masters, despite suggestions that only copies were utilized. I would hope aural evidence would be considered more definitive than hazy recollections from 20+ years ago.
