Are criticisms of the Beatles as a Live Band overblown?

Rubber Soul rules the top 2 threads

 

Good question, I just stumbled upon it on Youtube.. I thought it was different than either of the filmed shows because of the better performance of Paperback Writer which I had remembered being pretty bad, but hadn't seen in a while..

 

It's definitely not an audience recording. If you've heard any of those --- and I have checked out most that circulate at least once --- the audio's uniformly lousy-sounding and largely unlistenable, by the common standards of most self-respecting music lovers.


It would have been completely fab for the concert in question to actually be a third recorded Budokan performance, but a discovery of that magnitude would be so rare that we can consider it a certain impossibility, at this late date. Unfortunate but true.


Since my earlier post, I have been able to conclusively confirm that this audio is from the videotape of the July 1st concert.


And when I alluded to the telltale lyrical gaffes committed during the show (like John swallowing the second verse of "Day Tripper"), I wasn't knocking the band's performance. Fun stuff, some of it. For instance, it's a virtual hoot to hear George & Paul messing about, chiming in with "I'm in love with me and I feel fine" while backing Lennon.



Warts and all, I love the Tokyo videos though Candlestick Park remains my go-to concert when I'm in the mood for live '66 audio.

 

Thanks for your more-definitive opinion.

I too do not believe it to be an audience recording.

 

So true. One of the reasons the Beatles were such a great group was because all four of them sang, wrote songs, and played instruments. (Even as I realize Ringo's songwriting was limited.) But Ringo was never viewed as just "the drummer". He had spotlight roles in their films, in their photo shoots, and via interviews. And was instrumental...in their instrumentation.

You want a "formula" for a great group? (Although I realize there's no magic formula...)

Have all the members write songs, participate in vocals, harmonize together, have shared vocals or vocal parts from more than one member...in many of the songs...such as A Day In The Life, be involved instrumentally in a cohesive and equal manner, be featured equally in public, and have equal input. The Beatles all agreeing to the rule that all 4 have to agree and be on the same page...and one veto meant a "no go"...(even if there were significant disputes/arguments sometimes)...helped to make them as great as they were.

I don't have to go where I'm about to go...but I think that all of this helped the Beatles...rise to greater heights...in contrast to the Rolling Stones.

Who were cohesive in many ways...yet Mick clearly dominates the vocals.

The same can be said for the Who...with Daltry dominating the vocals. Even though I realize that Townsend had some of the vocals....as did Entwistle.

The Who could start to be boring with Daltry often shouting/overexpressing. Even if Townsend was doing do his windmill guitar move.

The underrated Moody Blues were good about spreading the vocals as well.

Likewise the Beach Boys.

And the Byrds.

 

One would need to define what 'virtuoso' actually means. My definition (in the rock-related context) would rather point at musicians capable of playing any style with a dexterity of the highest order. Think of Steve Vai, Tony Levin or Hiromi. I really cannot think of any famous classic rock era performer that would come close to that level, maybe except for Jeff Beck and Keith Emerson.

I can remember reading about the early 90s studio sessions of YES, an upper echelon classic rock band technique-wise, whose main "virtuosos" Howe and Wakeman got dismissed by the producer as not up to modern performing standards (their parts got re-recorded by studios pros). They just could not cut it when forced outside their stylistic safety zone.

Extended improvisations of the classic rock era were not great because they featured some impossible technical playing, but because they were original and passionate, loose and unpredictable, which is the very essence of rock music and the reason why people listen(ed) to it. I am not glued to the speakers when listening to live renditions of Cream's N.S.U. or Velvet Underground's Sister Ray because they are masterpieces of improvisation or technique on the level of Franz Liszt, but because they trigger short circuits in my nerve system.

From this standpoint, listening to the Beatles' Washington '64 gig I can hear a band capable of developing their act to conquer Monterey, Fillmores and Woodstock. Easily. In 1964 they had enough musicality, talent and chops to hone their stage craft to carve their own niche in the new rock world. The problem was that it would be always an underachievement compared to their mega pop-star status attained through their studio work.

The future live careers of Lennon and Harrison (or rather lack thereof) kind of confirm that it was not a "screaming fans/lack of monitors" issue, but a mental fragility. The future live careers of McCartney and Starr, condemned to the ex-Beatles solo performer status (despite the Wings being a really good live act) also give an indication, why the band found little incentive in continuing as a live unit. A golden cage syndrome I suppose.

 

13 January 1963, the Beatles appeared at bottom of a 7-act bill when recording their first appearance on a national TV show, ‘Thank Your Lucky Stars’ - broadcast 5:50pm Sat 19 Jan 1963. Other guests incl: Acker Bilk, Petula Clark, Mark Wynter, The Brook Brother.
I wonder if this TV appearance survived?

 

No it didn't. Just three of their unique Thank Your Lucky Stars appearances have survived, a 'Liverpool Special' in December 1963, a pre-filmed segment of four songs in November 1964, and one song 'Money', from an October 63 performance. Particularly sad as they lip-synched Eight Days a Week in April 1965, for the only time.

The earliest extant TV appearance is the clip of them miming Twist and Shout in black polo necks from Scene at 6.30 (Granada TV in Manchester) taped 14 August 1963 and their earliest national TV broadcast is from Ready Steady Go, 4 October 1963, the 22 other TV appearances before that were either junked or live and never recorded anyway, as were most of their subsequent TV appearances through 1964/5. (Fortunately their Cavern Club footage was not broadcast until November 1963 otherwise that may have been 'lost' too.)

The BBC didn't fare even as well as that, losing all of their Beatles footage save three items: The Mersey Sound taped in August 1963, eight minutes from a December 1963 live concert in Liverpool and, believe it or not, All You Need is Love from Our World in 1967. Apart from that, nothing.

By the way, nice backing group, Dusty!


Meanwhile, Paul wonders what to do with his hands.

 

And the Beatles - who were stadium-rock pioneers - would have to adhere to this 'requirement'?

That's funny. Those are some strict rules.

You don't think they could have jammed out the end of 'Hey Jude' to everyone's satisfaction?

They would have had the whole stadium or cow field singing along with them and been jamming out.

 

I totally agree!

The Beatles could easily just jam if they wanted to. The song I Want You She's So Heavy is nothing but a jam, and a song that I absolutely love!

 

I've seen this McCartney look --- gesture --- before:

He's on the verge of pulling one of his trademark boxing Shazam! moves.


We should all be afraid, very afraid.

 

Sorry for stirring up any unwarranted speculation. I'm for sure not a Beatle bootleg expert/archivist, though I have a decent collection from downloads. I really don't know what's out there, for all I knew all the Japan shows might circulate. Sorry to Arnold Grove as well. I'll take your word for it on that not being an audience recording. It to me sounded lower fi than what I remembered of the Japan shows in color video, and I didn't remember as good of performances on some of the tracks.I'm leaving town today, but I'm gonna dig out my videos when I get back, just for the enjoyment of listening/watching. Interesting if bumping up tape speed oh so slightly can make it sound a little tighter. July 1st show, but is it the same source just altered?

 

It's the soundtrack, nothing new at all. It may be worth remembering that, apart from extremely lo-fi audience tapes like Rome 65 and some US and Germany 66 shows that are practically unlistenable, all Beatles live show recordings have been well-researched and documented, and all are 'out there' and have been for more than 30 years EXCEPT for an August 1963 Bournemouth concert, a few brief clips of which were broadcast on BBC radio about 10 years ago and which is remarkably good.

 

I've just checked Paul's introduction to If I Needed Someone and it's the 1st July show, just sped up a semi tone.

Ondra

 

I'm sure if they could hear themselves, they would have been better....

 

I'll take that as a definite answer. Thanks.

 

I have the dark suits show audio on a vinyl LP - bought new back around 1979 or 1980. I didn't know it was one of the Tokyo shows until I saw the videos later on. So the separate audio of that show has been circulating since at least then. It's actually a solid show (it might be the light suits show that has given the Tokyo stint a bad rap). No cover art, but packaged as a 2-LP mail-order off-market offering with the complete HBowl '64 show. Saw the ad for it in Hit Parader or something like that. Fly by night operation, I'm sure.

 

No, they're out of tune and under-prepared on the June 30 Dark suits show (and also somewhat hampered by the wobbling mics), and better on the light suits July 1st show. The two soundtracks are easily differentiated by the tone of George's guitar which is gritty and harsh (and more ad-lib bits) on the latter show and blandly metallic on the former, earlier show.

 

Well, if the light suits show is even better (I haven't heard all of it in a while, but George's guitar on 'Day Tripper', at least, is fuzzed out - in a good way), then the circulating Tokyo shows really don't deserve the bad rap they've gotten.

What I've got on that vinyl LP is definitely the dark suits show; the audio matches the audio on the dark suits video.

All of them seem to be engaged in the dark suits show - with the exception, somewhat, of Ringo - who must have had bad jet lag or didn't like the food. George is actually the most animated - waving to the crowd on more than one occasion. John and Paul seem fairly into it as well.

Is it certain (a video stamp or something?) that the light suits and dark suits shows are from different days? The old story used to go that the light suits show was the afternoon show - where the Beatles were shocked at having to play somewhat unrehearsed for a crowd that didn't scream as much as usual; shocked to the point where they quickly got their act together for the evening show - supposedly the dark suits show.

 

Someone (below) claims that the dark suits show runs a semitone slow on the video. Is that possible with video? Wouldn't the set be slightly longer and the tempos slower and the movements onstage lagging?

Or would this be more a case of the Beatles having tuned themselves according to one of their guitars that was tuned low?

'The pitch is correct for the 1 July show (light jackets). But for the first concert, June 30 (dark jackets), all songs run a semitone low . Everywhere I find a recording or video clip from the 30th all music is wrong. Rock and roll music in Ab? Nowhere man in Eb? Don´t think so. I have used a program to change the pitch to a semitone higher and synced it up with the film. Much nicer to listen to now. This is also the case with the Washington Coliseum Show of 1964. And some of the Ed Sullivan Shows are also wrong.
At least the microphones are less wobbly than the night before! This is the better performance of the two, I think, even if the lyrics to Paperback writer is messed up a little bit. And for I feel fine, John is mostly right and the backing isn´t. Towards the end though, it comes out as I´m in love with me and I feel fine!' - Jonas Svensson, Sweden

 

The Beatles tuned to pipes or harmonica or piano so the 'video' is lagging, most likely due to transfer from NTSC(Japan) to film for conversion to NTSC (US) or PAL.

 

George has spoken directly to this. He waved to the crowd because he knew it would get a reaction - they would scream. And he waved at specific points in the songs because it would cover up places where the Beatles had a hard time singing high notes or harmonies. Paperback writer is a classic example of this. It was multitracked on the studio recording, but they obviously couldn't do that multitracking live. So he'd wave, the girls would scream, and it would cover up a multitude of "sins".

 

The old story must be wrong as they are decidedly better on the light suits show, the mic problem is on the dark suits show, and George is doing all the distracting waving on the dark suits show, but really playing well on the light suits show (check out the 'Runcorn' version of I'm Down'). George misses most of his high falsetto bits in Paperback Writer on the dark suits show but hits them more squarely on light suits show.
The old story is from the days before proper historians chronicled everything Beatles.

 

Well I guess the brief confusion led to what I consider an interesting conversation. I hope for continued insight, and thank you. I have long wondered how the Beatles referenced their A440 tuning. I haven't put a tuner to the music, nor even thought about it. Assuming that the Vox organ used on stage during 66 was an instrument that held tuning, thinking about it now, my guess would be they tuned to the organ. An amazing revelation to think that the Japan video that circulates is slightly detuned due to video format swapping is extremely interesting, and begs the question of does a speed corrected video exist?

Another thing, without checking I'm wondering if the Japan 66 clip from the anthology DVDs
had been speed corrected. I'm guessing not.

 

No, The Beatles tuned to piano, pipes or harmonica, usually harmonica, never the Vox Continental. Here they are on the 66 tour.


Paul, as usual, leaving it to the last minute and kind of just guessing.