Are Older SONY Jazz SACD's Not Sourced From The Master Tapes?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Kayaker, Dec 29, 2003.

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  1. Kayaker

    Kayaker Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Joisey Now
    I just read this discussion on AudioAsylum.com
    (hate to give them free advertising - its the wild west over there most times)

    Anyone know if this guy Jeremy123 who is posting if full of crap?
    ....it does make for interesting reading.

    http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/162667.html

    Posted by Jeremy123 -

    "On behalf of Sony Music, I do not want to disappoint some of you but, yes, the Dave Brubeck "Time Out" SACD is mastered using the PCM master copy. Actually most early Sony SACDs of jazz & classical reissues are from the 20 or 24 bit PCM production masters made for CD productions. We did not use analogue masters mainly because of archival reason. Those tapes are old and fragile. Many of them are in miserable shape right now and it's very risk playing them again and again for each reissue, and let them expose to the humid and normal temperature of the studio. Most of them are Scotch 111 magnetic tape, uncoated (matted surface) and acetate base. Acetate can be shrink, warp, brittle and very fragile with time if you do not keep it in the right environment (climate & humidity control). The uncoated magnetic particle has a high degree of shedding everytime it passes the tape machine's playback head at high speed (usually we recorded at 15ips, with some cases at 30ips) causing drop-out or other undesirable phenominon. So that's why we do not use the original analogue masters, unless they are really important projects. We at Sony may reissue those old jazz titles using analogue tapes in the future, though, when the SACD format is more mature. Anyway, thank you for your support on our products. "

    He Further Posts:

    http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/162790.html

    "Yes, our early DSD A/D Converters were not up to the task, so we have decided to wait until fully developed converters are available before we go back to the master tapes again for the reissue. as I said in previous post, it is possible we may use analogue tapes in the future but now we decide to wait until SACD technology is more mature.
    Look at it this way, how many times we at Sony reissues Miles Davis' album "Kind of Blue". It will happen with SACD, too.
    About the difference you may hear between CD vs. SACD of same titles, the explanation is, when you hear SACDs, you hear the full resolution of our 20 bit/48 KHz or 24 bit/48 KHz masters, on CDs you hear the sound of the down convertion from higher bit/sampling rate to the 16 bit/ 44.1 KHz world."
     
  2. RetroSmith

    RetroSmith Forum Hall Of Fame<br>(Formerly Mikey5967)

    Location:
    East Coast
    I had read this (similar) elsewhere. There were some older Sony titles that not only didnt they use the analog masters for the SACD, they used the digital CD masters, and resampled THOSE.

    You have to ask yourself, "whats the point" then you realize that the marketing people dont really care, they just want something to sell.
     
  3. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    I think the guy is makin' up stories!

    I recall Steve saying something to the effect of these earlier Sony stereo SACDs were pretty much straight transfers from the analog tapes. I don't have the quote/link handy. Steve, feel free to clarify.
     
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    That first post is the biggest bunch of hog**** I've ever read on the Internet. Wow.
     
  5. KeithH

    KeithH Success With Honor...then and now

    Location:
    Beaver Stadium
    Steve said:

    :laugh: Thanks for clearing that up!
     
  6. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I have it from Bob Belden (himself) that the Miles material available on SACD all comes from the master tapes transferred directly to DSD. Sony's Kawakami has made similar statements to that effect.

    I know people gripe about the Sony's but I think a few of the best SACDs out there have come from Sony.
     
  7. Mike Dow

    Mike Dow I kind of like the music

    Location:
    Bangor, Maine
    [
    Posted by Jeremy123 -

    "On behalf of Sony Music, I do not want to disappoint some of you but,
    (usually we recorded at 15ips, with some cases at 30ips) causing drop-out or other undesirable phenominon. .......
    . Anyway, thank you for your support on our products. "




    It's difficult to take this guy seriously when he doesn't even bother to use "spell check"!
     
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Yeah, c'mon, guys. Those first Sony SACD's are all analog to DSD, all the time. Just give a listen. Trust your ears. If they can't use the original tape, they won't release the album on SACD...
     
  9. KeithH

    KeithH Success With Honor...then and now

    Location:
    Beaver Stadium
    Brubeck Time Out and Miles Kind of Blue were two of the first SACDs I bought three years ago, and they have always impressed me.
     
  10. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    I'd think Sony's SACD jazz titles were from the actual analog tapes, since they developed and used DSD for archiving in the first place.
     
  11. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I also like the Take 5 disc. (For the record, Chesky also transfers from analog tape.)

    It's funny how things get started on the Internet...you get what you pay for!

    I'm still waiting for SACD 2 to arrive. :)
     
  12. cvila

    cvila Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    When I read that at Audio ASylum, I did a post search of Jeremy123. All his other posts led me to believe that not only did he not work for Sony, he did not work in the industry at all. His other questions were the type that the lay person would ask.
     
  13. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    There are quite a bit of weird trolls who are looking to change people's minds about the very products they paid good money into, and faith they're just now feeling comfortable about.

    Audio Asylum is a great forum, but not without it's B.S. You have to really be careful with what you read.

    Dave Brubeck's "Time Out" SACD is certainly from the original tapes as is Miles material and done with utmost care and attention to detail. Something a label like MFSL would have done, or would have loved to do.

    Hog is right.
     
  14. Drew

    Drew Senior Member

    Location:
    Grand Junction, CO
    Its amazes me though how many people read something on the net and take it to heart. There's really no obligation to the truth on the internet. Heck, there's no obligation to the truth on the evening news. You just have to get your information at a place that has a reputation for accuracy. Ok, forget about the evening news. :laugh:
     
  15. tone ded freb

    tone ded freb Senior Member

    Location:
    Arizona Snowbowl
    Sounds like a silly attempt to win some kind of battle in the format war.
     
  16. fjhuerta

    fjhuerta New Member

    Location:
    México City
    :ed: :edthumbs: :nauga:
     
  17. Dob

    Dob New Member

    Location:
    Detroit
    I am quite happy with my Kind Of Blue SACD, but I am disappointed with Time Out...I prefer the EQ on my Mastersound gold CD, though I could see how some might find the Mastersound a little bright. FWIW, I thought the redbook remaster was on the dull side as well.

    BTW, my Kind Of Blue SACD states "unbreakable" on it. Is this something new? I haven't had any problems with cracking, but other members obviously have (with other SACDs).
     
  18. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    "Unbreakable" was something Columbia put on labels many years ago. Instead of shellac-type compounds, vinyl was used, boasting a higher life and less likely to break under normal use. More fragile-like compounds used in the 40's and early 50's for some labels was something they left behind in succession of vinyl technology.

    "Unbreakable" does not mean anything on the SACD other than their desire to create a label that emulates the original LP labels. :laugh:
     
  19. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    Heh...someone should point this out to Crest. :laugh:

    I like those retro label reproductions myself...it's always amusing to read LP-based terms on a CD. Although I'd wished they would have put the proper 6-eye label on the Kind Of Blue SACD, not the later "360 Sound" 2-eye.
     
  20. Gardo

    Gardo Audio Epistemologist

    Location:
    Virginia
    And it wouldn't be the first time someone's tried such a thing.:mad:
     
  21. Claude

    Claude Senior Member

    Location:
    Luxembourg
  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Thanks, Claude.

    Let's reprint that here. I'm sure Mark won't mind...

    From Audio Asylum:

    Being someone who is intimately involved with the mastering of Jazz at Sony, I would like to say a few things.
    First, I do not believe Jeremy123 is a Sony employee, nor does he have any firsthand knowledge of the mastering of the Sony Jazz catalog. If he is, I am calling him out. My extension is x4257, call, I'd love to talk.

    Second, our general rule for mastering Redbook or SACD is to use the best available source, period. Myself, with producers and other engineers, work long and hard not to screw this stuff up, because we know you are out there listening.

    The tapes are in excellent shape, kept in climate controlled vaults. Tape condition is very rarely an issue.

    Since my first SACD project in 1999, the Meitner converters have proven themselves time and time again. Currently, they are on Version 5 with small improvements each time. They are so good that, on occasion, I use them for Redbook issues of frontline CD's.

    I could not let comments like the ones posted by jeremy123 slip by. This will be my only post. I only registered to reply to what was forwarded to me.

    Mark Wilder
     
  23. Damián

    Damián Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Spain now
    What does this mean?
     
  24. bmoura

    bmoura Senior Member

    Location:
    Redwood City, CA
    It means that Mark Wilder sometimes uses the Ed Meitner designed Direct Stream Digital (DSD) converters when mastering Stereo CDs as well as for Stereo and Surround Sound SACDs.

    For example, the Stereo CD of the musical "Seussical" on Decca Broadway says on the credits "Mastered in DSD/SBM Direct by Mark Wilder at Sony Studios Mastering"

    At the Home Entertainment 2001 show, Wilder made these comments about DSD:
    * Working with DSD & SACD is great; With it I'm no longer fighting with the recording technology to get great results
    * DSD lets me pare back the amount of processing that is applied to the master tape; resulting in a much more musical result
    * I now use DSD in every project in my mastering room, regardless of whether or not it is slated for SACD release
    * Since 50% of our mastering business is with Jazz labels outside of Sony; we have provided DSD gear to Blue Note & Verve
    * By using DSD in all of my mastering, it has broadened the base of potential Jazz SACD releases
    * Whenever I am mastering a disc, I always cut an SACD master before I bring down the music resolution to PCM format
    * I also use DSD to up and down convert 24 bit PCM audio; It adds a richness to the master that isn't there with PCM alone
    * I hope that more mastering and recording engineers will try DSD; I think they will be surprised by the improvements it brings

    See http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/20923.html for the notes from that session.
     
  25. GabeG

    GabeG New Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Brian, those comments are great, but let's remember that Mark is a Sony employee.
     
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