Are the loudness wars over?*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Diorama, Sep 5, 2017.

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  1. Just a "Counter Offensive".
    #Hope

    :angel:
     
  2. Synthfreek

    Synthfreek I’m a ray of sunshine & bastion of positivity

    What gets my goat is that it seems to be that people are thinking the war is between ones that are wanting to make recordings less dynamic/loud and others that are wanting to retain dynamics. The war is only between the ones wanting the recordings louder. Their "war" is the act of beating each other to make the loudest possible recording. The "war" between the two opposite camps does not exist.
     
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  3. GroovyGuy

    GroovyGuy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Halifax, NS Canada

    With all due respect, I don't have a rats ass about volume. All of my audio rigs have more than enough amplification to produce the volume I need - I just need the source material to be mixed and mastered in a way that will allow me to enjoy the QUALITY of the sound of the music without grinding my teeth due to compression and loudness.

    IMHO, the concept of "producing a competative sounding album" is what started the loudness madness and what keeps feeding it. Forget about loud - I just want good .......
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  4. nosliw

    nosliw Delivering parcels throughout Teyvat! Meow~!

    Location:
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    It's also the fact that record labels, artists and radio stations alike want the music to be heard "loud" on even the worst speakers imaginable as playing a track that is well-mastered with dynamics intact through the said awful speakers will not sound "great" to a layman's ear. Same deal with people wearing non-noise cancelling headphones and earphones as well.
     
  5. ricks

    ricks Senior Member

    Location:
    127.0.0.1:443
    :sigh

    Although at least 10 people got the jokes based on the "likes"... For who did not, given some of it was a bit obscure, here is a "serious" non-funny response; Of course some outside the forum care, but even here the majority don't, and from their point of view it is OK.

    At least for now there are some niche labels that issue Dynamic life like product. Enjoy those releases as their days may be waning.

    Exactly my friend :)

    Exaggeration in the form of an overblown bombastic absolute response - a comedy tenant.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
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  6. Diorama

    Diorama Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ireland
    I have some albums that are very dynamic as a whole but one track might have a DR of about 6 so it kinda look deceiving when look at the DR min and max. I think Moss Garden on the Heroes album had a DR of 9.
     
  7. mwheelerk

    mwheelerk Sorry, I can't talk now, I'm listening to music...

    Location:
    Gilbert Arizona
    Speak up please, I can't hear you! I've been listening to my late 90's remasters all day.
     
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  8. bullmkt3

    bullmkt3 Forum Resident

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  9. Jiri Smahel

    Jiri Smahel Forum Resident

    Location:
    Czech rep.
    War .. war never changes.
     
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  10. mikaal

    mikaal Sociopathic Nice Guy

    The last 2 "new" cds I have bought seem to be getting there ; Laurie Anderson's "Heart Of A Dog" and the Kraftwerk 3D boxset.
     
  11. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    At this point it's a self fulfilling prophecy though. If the new hot album sells a million copies, it's probably not because it's louder than the album that only sold 100,000 copies, but the labels will assume it is. And if the album that sells a million has really good DR, what are the chances the label will ascribe the success of the album to its DR value?
     
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  12. Disionity

    Disionity Forum Resident

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    How can the loudness war end when only a fraction of music listeners even know it exists? My big question is: why does it continue to go on? The whole point has been made completely moot with volume normalization on my streaming services. Or even better, if it's too loud or too soft, TURN THE FREAKING VOLUME DIAL!!! Honestly this doesn't have to be complicated. Why can't they make a super compressed master for iTunes and streaming and leave LP, CD, and Hi-Res alone?
     
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  13. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    It's not about playback volume, its about average level of a track and squashing the dynamics so that the supposedly quiet parts of a track are only a couple of dBs down from the loud parts. On top of that, yes, the worst damage is done when someone boosts the level going into thw limiter such that the peaks are clipped in an effort to make the whole average level as hot as possible. But even with playback volume normalization the quiet parts of a track with conventional musical dynamics are going to be quieter and the whole thing is going to sound less hot and for want of a better description, modern or exciting to some people. Playback normalization isn't really an antidote.
     
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  14. Disionity

    Disionity Forum Resident

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    Sorry for the misunderstanding, still kind of a noob to the whole audiophile scene. I wasn't saying normalization was a solution, rather the need for all songs to be mastered loud so their volume is consistent is negated by the feature. Am I wrong in thinking the loudness war was made as an effort to remove dynamic swings in DB to allow the listener to not have to fiddle with the volume dial as much, in addition to catering to those with lower-end equipment?
     
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  15. marcob1963

    marcob1963 Forum Resident

    Youtube, I believe, are now normalising everything to 13 Lufs. I believe Apple and streaming services are going to follow.

    If so, then the loudness war will eventually be over. At 13 Lufs brickwalled stuff will sound puny and dare I say it, not as loud as a dynamic mastering. It will take the buffoons from the Industry some time to catch on, but they will have to.
     
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  16. MHP

    MHP Lover of Rock ‘n Roll

    Location:
    DK
    What if it is the artist's own intention / decision to have the music sound loud and compressed?
    Many artists want the compression and limiting as part of their artistic expression.
    There is a reason as to why the Sgt. Pepper remix was given the green card by Paul and Ringo: They wanted it to sound that way! Maybe you, think the artists need to get 'educated' in sound, but beware that it is their creations we are listening to.

    People here also forgets that the artists and engineers compressed and limited things in the studio and during the mastering process, already in the sixties and seventies, because they could increase the intensity of the performance.
    I think the real reason why people dislikes compression and limiting, is because the tools to do so has changed. So what people dislikes, is not the compression and limiting as such, but the way it has become to sound.

    Also, it is sometimes a bit of a hysterical read to look on this forum:
    When people started to complain about the Stones Mono box or the Beatles Stereo box being 'loud, compressed and limited', I had a laugh. Some people simply has so overly sensitive ears, that it is a joke.
     
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  17. Paul P.

    Paul P. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA, USA
    Well- here's my take on it. Worth at least 2 cents. :)

    Simplifying a bit - well a lot actually - CD as a medium only has one "volume". 0 dB on the meter is as loud as the system can get - that's all 16 bits of voltage from the D/A converters, if you will.

    Since humans perceive volume as an average - if you squash the peaks, and amplify the quiet, the perception is the sound is louder. This is dynamic range compression.

    So - to make a CD sound louder - since you can't increase the number of bits - this is what they had to do. They squashed the dynamic range and pushed it against the 0 dB "stops" to increase perceived volume.

    This is what I object to - the quashing of dynamic range sounds artificial, lifeless and fatiguing to my ears. The music no longer seems like somebody performing in the room with me. It's fine on FM radio in a noisy car, but not for serious, in-depth listening on even a mid-level system.

    I know that recorded audio is a construct - multi-tracking in the studio to create a "live" performance that doesn't really exist. Compression is a part of modern studio recording - most vocalists need some, for example - but good recordings try to maintain a semblance of natural dynamics.

    That's my take anyway. Again - only 2 cents worth.

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
  18. Paul P.

    Paul P. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA, USA
    Seems like a good LUFS explanation here:
    Video - Mastering Using LUFS And Loudness Meters

    I'm not sure if I agree with all of his suggestions, but it's an illuminating post.

    tl;dr: Simplified LUFS explanation here:
    What is the YouTube -13 LUFS Loudness Reference Level? - inSync

    Hadn't heard this term before - thank you for posting it!

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
  19. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    Except that the decline of general music sales (and the increase of vinyl sales) may have something to do with the loudness war... the companies (and bands!) are shootin' themselves in tha foot.
     
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  20. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    Art shouldn't be compromised for the sake of money-making. That whole 'competitive' talk drives me up the walls!

    Having said that, sure, there are CDs which are a bit quiet. But as with everything, there should be a golden medium. If everything is as loud as the drums, there is no rhythm anymore = background noise.
     
  21. atomic powered poster

    atomic powered poster Well-Known Member

    Location:
    germany
    Haven't read the whole thread, so this may be written before;

    Ny impression is that when it comes to rereleases of classic albums they have stopped the loudness madness, but new music, puh.... louder than ever.
     
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  22. atomic powered poster

    atomic powered poster Well-Known Member

    Location:
    germany
    They are mastering the music for the medium on which it will be heard, so for most people the radio in the car, on cheap earphones with their phone.

    In the 60's they mixed the voice way too loud because they wanted to rescue the melody when the music was played on cheap mono systems. The producers always have to think about the medium on which the music is gonna be heard; then and now. And the results are often, no suprise, not what one what a music enthusiast would like to hear.
     
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  23. Tsomi

    Tsomi Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lille, France
    Well, it's calming down. American dream by LCD Soundsystem sounds quite dynamic.

    Spotify lowered their target playback level to -14 LUFS, so we're getting some headroom back, because that's the current medium. Still, there's often too much processing going on, but it sounds like we're going back to mid-90s loudness levels. 2003–2005 was a really bad time for your ears, in comparison.
     
  24. The Hole Got Fixed

    The Hole Got Fixed Owens, Poell, Saberi

    Location:
    Toronto
    No armistice in sight.
     
  25. The answer sadly is to STOP BUYING music. Stop giving the industry (and yes, the artists who support bad mastering in the first place) your money for inferior end product. After 37 years of handing over tens of thousands of pounds to the industry, that is exactly what I'm proposing to do at the end of this year. I have more physical content than I know what to do with now anyway so perhaps it's easy for me to say this but I am frankly quite irritated by the way we have been manipulated, firstly with the advent of CD and then subsequent remastering campaigns of the past 30 years (you need to buy the album again because......etc) and now the whole vinyl resurgence (because less people are buying the crappy sounding CD's) and HD streaming / downloads. They wanted us to junk our vinyl in favour of CD and now we're being expected to do the exact opposite? If I can't get it free now I'll gladly pass, thanks. I'm not sure the industry deserves any better than it's going to get in the next decade.

    As a lot of us here know, it's not the media or the resolution that makes the biggest difference to SQ, it's the mastering and bad mastering is damaging music (and our hearing?). Who wants to pay for it?

    R.I.P. physical formats!
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
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