Are tube integrated amps inherently more forward-sounding?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Strat-Mangler, Apr 17, 2018.

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  1. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm curious to know whether tube integrated amps are inherently more forward-sounding than their SS-based counterparts. Are there tube integrated amps which have a more laid-back sound?

    My room is rather narrow and a forward sound makes the whole listening experience rather claustrophobic, for lack of a better word. A laid-back sound allows the music to breathe and doesn't feel like the sound is leaping out of the speakers.

    Essentially, I'm wondering if it's possible to have a tube integrated amp which will have a laid-back sound or if I should instead stick to SS. Opinions?
     
  2. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    I would not necessarily say tube amps & integrated amps are more forward sounding. Tube amps with the right manufacture of tubes are very clear & neutral sounding. A more laid back sound can be accomplished with the right tubes., but too much warmth may not be a good thing.
     
  3. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto
    Warm and laid-back are two different things. You're right that warmth can be "dialed" (so to speak) with the right tubes but how about forward VS laid-back?
     
  4. Salectric

    Salectric Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    I would put it the reverse of how you described it. Solid state amps tend to be recessed, laid back or distant in the midrange making them less interesting and less involving. Tube amps tend to have a more neutral midrange perspective.

    Within the tube amp universe, push pull designs with long tailed pair inverters (Mullard style) tend to be more recessed as opposed to Williamson or Dyna style split load inverters. Fixed bias designs tend to be recessed, less forward. Solid state rectifiers tend to be more recessed compared to tube rectifiers (at least most of them). Modern plastic film coupling caps tend to be recessed as well. These are generalities of course, tendencies as opposed to absolutes.

    When you say “tube integrated amps” I suspect you may be referring to vintage integrateds from the 1950s or 60s, in which case the chances are good that you have a tube rectifier, split load phase inverter, cathode bias (not fixed bias), and paper coupling caps. This will accentuate the midrange forwardness. And they will sound really nice! In my opinion of course.
     
  5. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto
    No, but I guess it's my fault for not being more thorough in the OP. Modern ones from Line Magnetic, PrimaLuna, Cary, Rogue, etc.
     
  6. H8SLKC

    H8SLKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    What about the judicious use of EQ to shape the sound to your liking?
     
  7. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    Newer tube amps from the 1990s and later do not need rebuilding like vintage tube amps. A big plus.
     
  8. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto
    That'd go against my sound philosophy, firstly. Also, it wouldn't change the inherent characteristics of the gear anyway. For instance, a Klipsch speaker will sound forward regardless of whether an EQ is plugged in and the frequencies are recessed.

    Forward/laid-back sound is pretty tough to explain, unfortunately.
     
  9. theron d

    theron d Forum Resident

    Location:
    Baltimore MD
    The Rogue Cronus Magnum II is not forward at all. Its just right balance/tone wise. Food for thought.
     
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  10. mike catucci

    mike catucci Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    I have absolutely dialed in forward versus laid back with tube rolling in my CM2. That said I would agree with theron that from the factory the CM2 is right smack in the middle. I've also had speakers make a big difference regardless of the amp.
     
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  11. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    Some tube designs are more forward sounding, and some are more back of the hall. One particular unit which I know for to have that 50th row center sound is the classic CJ PV5 preamp. Sorry that its not an integrated, but I don't know that market nearly as well.
     
  12. Mike from NYC

    Mike from NYC Senior Member

    Location:
    Surprise, AZ
    While I don't have a tube amp, my preamp is all tube and brought with it a fuller sound, fleshing out the performers and the instruments and creates a bigger center stage - the description I gave it is a more 'woody' feeling. When I first received my tube preamp, an Audio Research Reference 3, I hooked it up into my Rogue Pharaoh in such a way that I could switch between preamps with a press of a button on my Rogue and heard the dramatic difference it made to my audio system.

    I can also hear what tubes do in my DAC with a press of a button switching from SS to tubes and it makes the music bigger sounding just like the preamp did although to a lesser degree.

    Rolling tubes can make a dramatic change to an audio system - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.
     
  13. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I don't think so. You may want to consider the role of power tubes, too. In my experience, the EL34 amps can have a more recessed midrange, where the phantom center sits back a ways. I've always been able to tune the integrated amps I've owned by changing the tubes. Many of the contemporary options really do come voiced pretty flat and neutral. Good transformers give you good grip on the low end. Lack of low end control can color the way the rest of a speaker performs.
     
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  14. ggergm

    ggergm another spring another baseball season

    Location:
    Minnesota
    @Strat-Mangler, I don't need to tell you that it depends on the tubes. This is something you know all too well.

    On my PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP integrated amp, when I was using my summer tubes, which are vintange Mullards, the amp had a strong presence, in both meanings of the word. The amp's tone, while never edgy, was vivid in the upper midrange, which is the presence region. The amp's soundstage was also quite present. The image was forward although rarely in front of the plane of the speakers. On the right piece of music, the speakers disappeared, with the soundstage spreading above, outside and behind the speakers. Even though a female vocalist might be in front of the instruments, she never sounded too forward. Everything was just there.

    I find my winter tubes, KT150s that run so hot I can only use them in the late fall through early spring, are better balanced tonally and more laid back in their presentation. Maybe there isn't oodles of depth but there's more than enough, again on the right recording, usually one that used just a few mics.

    Back in the 1970s and '80s, we'd talk about an amp having "an illusion of depth." My Mark Levinson ML-7a preamp was definitely that way. Smooth beyond belief, the instruments often played well behind the plane of the speakers. Eventually I grew tired of this. Its sonic signature stamped itself all over my music. With my PrimaLuna amp, especially with the KT150s but even with the Mullards, it's the other way around. The music defines the image, not that amp. On a modern, multitracked recording, every instrument is up front but that's how it should be. There is no attempt by either the music or the amp to create a three dimensional soundstage. With the s jazz combo recording from the 1960s or '70s, there is plenty of real, palatable depth. It ain't no illusion.
     
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  15. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    The CMII I used (stock tubes) almost put vocalists in my lap, well, more like they were standing on the ottoman. Rolling preamp tubes in my Cayin changed the tone but had little effect on soundstage and imaging. The Cayin has what I'd call a 5th row presentation.

    Yamaha amps have a more recessed center image. It's sort of like sitting mid hall as opposed to front row. Of all the SS amps I've owned, this is a bit unique to Yammies.

    You can find either presentation in both SS and tube designs.
     
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  16. gov

    gov Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC Metro
    Agree with much of this although in some cases, the definitions some use are different from mine...makes things interesting.

    I would say that if you felt the Rogue CMii was to forward, listen to a Cary amp--something like an SLi 80. I found that to lose a bit of the dynamics I love so much about my CMii. If I'm being honest, I wish I could have a bit more romance/lushness on my rogue but honestly it could just as well be the room. One of these days I'm going to demo in home the Stereo 100 in triode mode to compare....but of course that changes the pre-amp etc and what the hell am I really hearing. Ultimately, after lots of tube rolling, I've found a sound I'm loving and enjoy immensely.

    What I can also say is that bringing my speakers and source material and listening to a few different amps in a showroom helped me pick out differences between amps. REALLY hard to do and I would up listening to things that I wasn't initially (or in some cases at all) interested in. But at least it helped ME define differences as I heard them. Still wrought with problems but the most valuable thing I found.
     
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  17. bhazen

    bhazen ANNOYING BEATLES FAN

    Location:
    Deepest suburbia
    I have to confess here, as far as hifi gear goes*, I've never heard a definable difference between solid-state and tube gear. The little tube gear I have heard, I was actually surprised to not hear any of the rumoured tube 'character' -- no extra 'warmth', no 'palpable soundstage', etc. (I think that's a good thing.) I'll admit I haven't heard much tube kit demoed (Prima Luna, Rogue, Croft, Leben, Line Magnetic, maybe a few others.) At no point have I heard anything that would persuade me to switch from low-maintenance s.s. gear to tubes. But, I haven't heard any of the tube kit serious tube audiophiles tend to enthuse about (Audio Note, Decware, Oswald's Mill, Shindo, etc.) ...


    *Like most electric guitarists, I've traditionally preferred tubes for guitar amps; my Marshall 1974X runs EL84's, which I really like. However, recently I acquired an inexpensive solid-state Orange combo (a CR60c) as a spare, and it sounds great. Not "great for a solid-state amp"; just ... great! And nowhere near as finicky in a live situation. I've also tried the Boss Katana amps, they sound great too (albeit a bit more complicated to figure out.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  18. mike catucci

    mike catucci Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    I'm not challenging what YOU heard but I am saying something was either wrong with the tube amps you did hear, or maybe the speakers were not revealing enough, or the source material was lousy. I've had plenty of people over who could care less about audio and when they hear my CM2 they listen intently. Out of the box the CM2 can absolutely sound solid state-ish but with some proper rolling it can really sing.

    Did you hear all of these tube amps in the same place?
     
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  19. bhazen

    bhazen ANNOYING BEATLES FAN

    Location:
    Deepest suburbia
    No, different places (by which I mean audio boutiques), different speakers, and usually with music I brought that I'm totally familiar with. I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the time spent listening; I just didn't hear any audible cues that I was listening to glass vs. silicon. I just heard music! One of the systems, in fact (Line Magnetic CD deck>Leben amp>DeVore O/93 speakers) was maybe the best-sounding system I've ever heard. Sadly, way out of my league financially.
     
  20. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    never heard one that sounded forward. ever.
    i wish mine sounded a little more forward. neutral at best and that's a stretch.
     
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  21. 911s55

    911s55 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wa state
    A forward or recessed presentation to me has been dictated more by speakers than amplification. I have amps that certain frequencies are placed more upfront than others, tube and solid state and it is also totally dependent on your personal hearing sensitivity.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  22. Lonson

    Lonson I'm in the kitchen with the Tombstone Blues

    My experience mirrors jupiterboy's in many ways. My experience the last two decades has been with Decware amplifiers. I would say their SE34I (Rachel) and Torii Mk II are the most "laid back" of that line; there are new SE34I to be had, and a used example of both the SE34I and the Torii Mk II are listed on the Decware forum (the latter here also).
     
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