ATC 11 versus LS50

Like I said, that's the way I like it. They can even make crappy recordings sound acceptable.
Taste is personal, and not universal. To me, these are the best speakers, to you the ATC's are. There is no right or wrong. If everyone liked the same, there would only be one brand of speakers, one brand of amplifiers, and so on..

 

Yea I thought I made it clear that is what I was saying. I was only attempting to point out that with the bad the ATC's can highlight there is another side that they reveal which can border on spectacular. Sorry if I offended you, certainly not my intention.

 

Yeah, a 5" woofer, not going to win any deep bass awards but it does have surprising impact and slam with robust amplifiers.
In a nearfield setup they image incredibly and sound detailed yet smooth. Definitely not for far field / large rooms but would be fine nearefield in a 14 X 17 room for example.
Never heard the Spendors.

 

Excellent post, as was my dilemma for a long time. The descriptor I used while searching for the perfect speaker was "musical;" not too detailed, not to soft, but as Goldilocks said, "just right." What I found was the Meadowlark Kestrel. It was a very musical speaker and I was content for quite a while. At certain times though, I realized I was missing something in the music. Among the contenders were Thiel 1.6, Vandersteen 1C, Magnepan 12QR, Kestrel II, and I could go on and on. Many of the speakers I tried did exactly what I hoped they would do...for a while. Then I'd pull the Kestrels out of the closet, hook them up, start the music and say, oh yeah.

Revel M20 was the speaker that unseated the Kestrels, although it took a second pair for me to realize it. I now use the Revel M22 and may someday get a pair of the M106s as they sound "just right."

Why am I commenting in this thread? Because I'm 2 weeeks into a pair of KEF LS50W after loving the LS50s. With some music I feel I could live with the LS50 sound forever, and then I'll play something and think maybe not.

 

I find my SCM11V2 with my Line Magnetic integrated give me that little bit of warmness that is extremely pleasing.

 

I thought you made a great point about focusing on their 'weaknesses' and ignoring their strengths. All speakers are are a series of trade offs, IME. No speaker is the best at everything. What's funny is both of you guys have found important distinctions between two speakers that, in the grand scheme of things, are more similar than different. They both excel at similar things and lack others, compared to the whole world of loudspeakers. I haven't heard ATCs yet, but based on your description of their sound, I definitely hope to some day.

 

First of all this is a fantastic thread, very informative and helpful - it basically made me sign up for this forum.

So I too have this dilemma, LS50 vs SCM11 (or even SCM19). I'm looking to upgrade my speakers for my semi-restored mid 70s Accuphase E-202 (100 watts/pc into 8 ohms). I currently have the Usher S-520's which are very nice speakers overall, but they lack in clarity and bass definition and the treble is too sharp. My main sources are Rotel 855 (TDA1541A dac) and Technics SL-1200 mk5 with Grado DJ200i carts.

The E-202 has a specific tone that could be described as wide, airy, somewhat relaxed and warm, yet extremely detailed. It is not very punchy however, especially the bass is a bit loose. It's not particularly dark or bright sounding. Overall a very sweet and alluring sounding amp.

I've now tested the Totem Rainmaker and Totem Model 1 Signature (early 2000). The Rainmakers were too relaxed for my amp. The Model 1 S were very good, extremely detailed but slightly too bright and piercing and not as dynamic as I would have liked. I've also had the Harbeth 30.1 for testing but my amp then was Quad 303 (45 watts) which couldn't drive them; the Harbeths sounded very nice and detailed otherwise, but the bass was too slow and muddy. They also sounded too big and overwhelming for my room (5,5 m x 3,5 m, height 3,4 m, speakers 50 cm from the longer 5,5 m wall.)

I now have a pair of LS50s for home demoing. These are the best pair of speakers I've heard in my home. Tight bass, just the right amount of it. Smooth treble. Wonderfully pick out even the most subtle transients. Great imaging. Pleasant overall tone. But there is one major drawback: the LS50 lack air. I cannot hear the reverbs or the room acoustics in chamber music. Also as Art K mentioned, not the king of timbre - even the Totem Model 1's were clearly superior in revealing textures of individual instruments. I can fully subscribe to the below description of the LS50 by Mr K. I also wonder if the LS50 was designed like this to 'tame' modern SS amps which (IME) tend to sound harder and brighter than the mid 70's ones.

I should underline that (for various reasons) I mostly listen to music at very low, peaceful speech, volume. The abovementioned drawbacks of the LS50s become much smaller at higher volumes.

My practical problem is that the LS50 are very easy for me to find in a shop locally but if I decide to order a pair of ATC, they will be difficult to return.

Now the quoted opinions below makes me think that the SCM11's might be just what I'm looking for. But I wonder if the Accuphase is sweet enough for the ATC's 'brutal honesty' and whether it has the power to adequately drive the SCM11 (or even SCM19) at low volumes.

 

@duckrabbit, I don't know where you are in Europe, or what the availability of Revel speakers is there, but if possible, give the Performa3 M106 a listen. When comparing the LS50 to my older Performa M22s to the LS50s, I found the M22s to have more believable presentation. I'll say it's more like I'm hearing music and not speakers, if that makes sense.

 

Thanks timind, the Revel M106 is a very interesting suggestion. I just read the praising review in Stereophile by R. Reina which really got me curious. He seems to raise the M106s above other bookshelves for bass definition and transients. And I somewhat trust him because I fully agree with his (again praising) review on the Totem Dreamcatchers - I just bought a secondhand pair which will soon be connected to my little Sansui AU-101 in the kitchen. I'm in Helsinki and (luckily!) there seems to be one dealer here who stocks the Revel M106. I hope I can audition them.

But I'm still very interested to knowing more about the ATCs with regard to my situation.

 

I've owned LS50s and heard Harbeths many times. Being that you're in Europe, you should definitely try to audition some JM-Reynauds. I think they just might have the balance you're seeking.
Jean-Marie Reynaud Créateur d'enceintes acoustiques hautes performances

 

So when you talk about the 'brutal transparency' of the ATC making some recordings less enjoyable, what do you have in mind:

- harsh treble?
- digititis?
- overemphasis on certain frequencies, such as vocal siblance?
- dull, unexciting sound?
- ?

How much is getting the ATC's more enjoyable (with poorer recordings) a matter of balancing the sound with a more pleasing / forgiving amp?

I have a pair of very decent active studio monitors (for my music making hobby) the Neumann KH-120 A which are quite transparent and non-harsh but sound absolutely boring for music listening. So I certainly don't want to buy a pair of ATC to get that type of sound. Even my low end hifi setup NAD 302 + Usher S-520 is much more enjoyable. But I do thing the Accuphase would make them not sound like dull studio monitors.

 

Who are you addressing? It's important to quote the person so they are aware and are also alerted.

A few people used the phrase "brutal honesty" in this thread.

 

Thanks for the advice - some quotes below.

"Brutal honesty/transparency/exposing bad recordings etc." seems to be commonly attributed to the ATC. Obviously I would like anyone who has experience with the ATC to comment on my questions above. Especially those who don't think ATCs sound brutal in their setup. Just to get a better understanding how they sound and compare to others, especially the LS50.

 

I don't listen to a lot of chamber music, but let me weigh in on a few things that might help you.

1. From everything I researched don't spend the extra money for the 19's. The 11's seem to be the sweet spot. There are plenty of reviews/comments that will back that statement up online if you want to check it out further. Save that cash for something else.

2. Brutal honestly...ok so I've owned these for just over 6 months now and listen almost everyday. For me brutal honesty means you will hear every nuance in the recording, whether good or bad. Now does that mean it make some of my albums sound terrible? No and I think that is going a bit too far to say that, the album just does not sound as good as some others do. The biggest factor here that I have noticed is the mastering of the album. And for me, what the ATC's do for well mastered recordings outweighs any of the negative things they bring to the table. Just so you know the majority of my stuff sounds great, whether is be vinyl, an HR Tracks download, or streaming Pandora. It is the lousy vinyl recordings that just stand out because there is no where for that sound to hide behind the ATC's.

3. I'm an addict and for me half the fun of this hobby is trying new gear. Since I purchased the ATC's my quest for another, different speaker is gone. They are that damn good for me and my preference in music listening, which is detail, treble, airy highs that seem to float, accurate soundstaging and imaging. They do all these things well plus deliver a nice tight bass. My music preference is anything from the 70's and 80's with most of my time listening to Dire Straits, Pink Floyd, Alan Parsons Project, The Cars, Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac, etc. Just to give you an idea. That said I can go from Barry Manilow to Def Leppard in the same evening and all of it sounds fantastic on the ATC's.

I hope that helps. If you have more specific questions please fire way.

 

To my mind a lot of speakers have a bit of a dip in the frequency range somewhere around 1 kHz - 3 kHz to make them a bit more forgiving especially of harsh or poorly recorded material but the ATC SCM 11 is flat and so you get what's in the recording. I believe the extreme top end is actually a bit rolled off but beyond my hearing range. There is no sibilance in my experience - I consider the 11 to be an accurate speaker that does not colour the sound.

 

I spent the extra for the 19's have zero regrets they are the perfect size for my room... A couple of the guys at the shop (MusicDirect) who are fans of ATC... were like once you hear em you loss interest in any other speaker.... So your #3 is ringing pretty true... I didn't audition any other speakers once I heard them for the first time I had ZERO interest in hearing what the others were like... I just wanted them on the spot... I drive mine with a McIntosh MC300.... I play a range of music on these things.... Rock, Jazz, Blues.... crank the **** out of em, play em at low volumes... Vinyl, CD... doesn't matter.... I've played super compressed recordings on them as well, believe it or not they still can separate the layers... I don't know how they do it... even ****ty recordings can sound good on them... When you have a great recording, well its can be otherworldly... Sit back and enjoy the music.

 

Your Accuphase seems to sound similar to the NAD M32 I use to drive a pair of ATC SCM19 with C1 subwoofers (not at all required). While poor recordings is a challenge, the trebel is just wonderful and definitely not hard or tiring. Another point I would like to make is that the ATC's sound the best when played at medium to high volume.

 

On brutal honesty - ATCs teach you what good recordings can sound like and that's addictive in the way that you will likely miss it when you are not getting it. I do. Lack of clarity and transparency, unnatural human voices, inconsistent or unreal reverb, excessive compression, muted treble etc are things you may start paying more attention to and be increasingly annoyed about. And I'm afraid there is probably no going back for most audiophiles. Musicians, on the contrary, often don't seem to mind!

 

100%! They really do teach you to pay attention to those things you never did before... Because they are so transparent you start noticing little things there have been there all along but now are more obvious.. Oh they do revel all the flaws in a recording that's exciting actually... maybe not good for the wallet though As your probably going to want to seek out better masterings of recordings which probably aren't going to be cheap...

 

Perfectly stated sir!

 

I found to be true for me also.

They have near perfect imaging as you can get. They have a lot of bass energy for a speaker that size. They have extended high end extension and articulate details.

I want to like these speakers. I really want to like them, but I do not.

There is just something about them that is fatiguing and they do sound forward, which I have no issues with.

They just do not sound natural to me. Their sound is too tight.

 

I think you nailed it here Sand "They just do not sound natural to me. Their sound is too tight." I wanted to love these and save 1,500 and not get the ATC's and they do sound very good, but you nailed it here. There is just something tight and unnatural about them.

 

Very helpful. This is just the kind of elaboration I was looking for.

However, I'm a bit worried about the fact that many say the ATCs, at least the 19s, sound better at mid to high volumes. I tend to listen at low volumes (like peaceful speech).

I've still not decided on the ATCs. In fact I got a bit sidetracked after recently founding a good s/h deal on the Totem Dreamcathcers. Their character is just fantastic: effortless, open, airy, tight, great imaging, alluring sweetness... Originally intended for the kitchen (with my little Sansui AU-101) but now I'm getting used to having them in the living room (with the Accuphase) despite their small cabinet and slightly lacking bass. And they sound just as good even at very low volumes. I wonder if I should just live with these...

+1 this is my experience with the LS50 as well.

 

ATC might be a little demanding to set-up. But when you get it right they will sound very sweet.

 

If you listen at low volumes, say <70db, you want high efficiency speakers. Up until recently, I had 5 pairs of speakers in my home. None play at low volumes as well as my Klipsch Heresy 3s. Their mids and highs are plenty competitive at this price point. Pair them with a good tube integrated and you'll have a sublime musical experience. They don't plumb the depths of the lowest 2 octaves, but the bass they produce above that is exceptional - extremely fast and tight. And you'll no longer be reaching for a bass knob when listening at moderate levels.