Audio Note amplifiers - why is it so difficult

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Michael Stuart, Jun 9, 2019.

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  1. Michael Stuart

    Michael Stuart Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Scotland
    Good evening all,

    I have enjoyed reading threads on this excellent site for a long time now (mainly about Audio Note) and would like to ask a question please. I suspect the question might have been answered indirectly by conjoining many previous comments but would value your opinions/the benefit of your experiences.

    I would like to replace my current amplification with Audio Note. I am attracted by moving away from the current dual mono pre-amp and push-pull EL34 monoblocks to a single ended triode (integrated?) amplifier. My speakers are AN/E SPe HE. I have listened to an Oto Sig next to a P3 Silver and Jinro and would not settle for an Oto Sig. A Jinro is currently out of my price range. That seems to leave M3/P3 (of one variant), P3/Empress (of one variant) or a Meishu (of one variant). I fear that the separates route will involve many upgrading steps that will create ‘what if’ dissatisfaction in the interim when listening, whether that be buying a power amp first and waiting for an AN preamp or buying a basic power amp(s) and waiting for the Silver or Sig variant in due course. It also does not reduce the number of boxes. On the other hand I fear that a Meishu will not satisfy when compared to a P3 or Empress mono blocks or my current amplifiers.

    If any of you have a moment to spare, would you please give me your most forthright views.

    Thank you.
     
  2. finn

    finn Forum Resident

    Tough problem to have.
    Personally I would go for the M5 and a pair of Quest Silver's. Allows plenty of scope to upgrade over years with the help of AN factory or a competent tech. Plenty of high quality tubes to play with and the right 300b tubes have the magic inside them. The M5 is closer to an M6 than being at a midpoint between M3 and M6 so makes sense to push a little harder to own one. The Signature versions of the amps are better but at a significant cost, the Silver versions are the sweet spot in terms of performance, cost ratio.
    Good luck with your decision.
     
  3. spartree

    spartree Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I have the M5/Quest combination and I’m really happy with it. In my case the Quests are the normal non-silver version and I’ve had them for about 9 months, first with an M2 and then the M5 which joined in February. It’s an excellent combination with plenty of drive even for my non-HE AN-E’s. I do wonder sometimes if the Quest Silver or Silver Sig would make a worthwhile difference, but ultimately I haven’t really got the itch to change anything. As finn mentioned the Silver versions are close enough in price to the standard versions that they should be a consideration, while the Sig is a much larger cost increase.

    My advice is to get yourself into a position that would mean upgrading any further comes at a significant cost and/or would lead you down a path of changing everything, and use that as a deterrent. For me that means I’ll try to hover as close to the upper end of Level 3 as I can justify, because I know venturing into the Level 4 products starts to get very expensive and frankly it just won’t be an option barring a great used deal. But even then I’d be afraid that it would just open a whole new can of worms...

    My vote: M5 + the Silver version (because you have silver-wired speakers) of one of the small monoblock amps like the Quest or Empress. I suppose whether you buy the pre or the amps first would depend on which component you are the least happy with in your current system.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  4. finn

    finn Forum Resident

    I think it would help to understand that most of the AN are wonderfully similar aside from the specific requirements of certain tubes and the bulk of changes between levels have more to do with transformer materials and componentry used. It's a careful balancing act to always ensure the AN 'house sound' but generally its not too difficult to ensure you can upgrade your sound over the years.
     
  5. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    My dealer has the M3 and M6 and Empress, Jinro and 300b.

    Personally I prefer 2a3 all day over their 300b amps. It depnds what you listen to but as I listen to the odd trance and rock...2a3 is better. 211 is very expensive due to requiring safe power dupplies for lethal voltages.

    The M3 with Empress Silver is a nice combo. The M6 while better is near double the price. I did not notice enough of an improvement in the M6 over the M3 to justify a middle amplifier to be honest. Indeed unless you are directly comparing the M3 and M6 you probably won't care.

    Put it this way, ai would never upgrade my M3 to an M6. The improvement isn't big enough. The M9 yes but that's not happening without a lotto win.

    But I may eat my words as later in the week I am going to hear the Empress Silvers again on the M3 now that the Empress has been fixed. I'll also try the M6.

    Prepared to eat ny words but back when I auditioned the M3 and M6 via Jinro the difference as very very small to me. Empress may change that. :)
     
  6. Andy Saunders

    Andy Saunders Always a pleasure never a chore

    Location:
    England
    Get the best amp you can afford- purchasing the inferior amplifier ( in your mind ) will play on your mind.
    Nice problem to have - good luck.:)
     
  7. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    I would ask the dealer about an upgrade path. The dealer in my area offers very generous terms with trade-in/upgrades, and I think he is particularly generous with Audio Note because it holds value so well even as a used item (the benefit of buying gear that is not subject to constant model changes).
     
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  8. slcaudiophile

    slcaudiophile Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    I would really look at doing the new Meishu Silver. I heard the basic version in NYC and that performed well above the Oto Sig and was much closer in sound to the Jinro, at least in terms of dynamics, sound stage, etc. but had a slightly fuller balance. I can assure you the new design is just stunning and won’t disappoint and is difficult to beat unless you want to spend a lot more money. Let us know what you end up doing.
     
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  9. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    I would not go from a 30w+ rig to a <10w rig. You really need to hear your amp and the contender side by side due to the limitations placed on you by the lower power. If you sell your current amps, you can't easily go back. It's a rabbit hole that I have avoided and would advise you to as well. If anything, I would look at higher powered amplifiers. That will get you the immediacy of sound of the triode without the loss of power. It should also be less expensive. If you must go the triode route, I would prefer a KT88 amp to the AN as it'll be way more cost effective. If cost is of no concern, ignore all of that and get whatever you fancy at the moment. I agree with Richard regarding the 2A3 sounding better than the 300B. I have never been happy with a 300B amp long term. The 2A3 places even tighter restrictions on maximum volume levels, if the room and speaker set-up doesn't cooperate, but it beats the 300B tonally. The reason that I suggest looking into a KT88 triode build is that it has a sound that I prefer over the 300B and twice, hell three times the power of a 2A3. Most builds will probably be half the cost of anything AN too, if that matters.
    -Bill
     
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  10. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Unfortunately for me the KT88 may in fact be ny absolute least favorite tube type in every amp I've tried. Push pull tubes in general make me either want to buy a SET or look for a SS amp.

    With AN the Parallel Single Ended amps offer more power and superior bottom end control. The 18 watt 300b in parallel are a major upgrade over the DHT 300b single.

    The KT 88,90,120 varieties in PP though would probably just get me to buy an Accuphase SS power amp.
     
  11. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    + The OP has AN HE speakers. The Empress 2A3 would provide sufficient power
     
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  12. ThorensSme

    ThorensSme Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spokane
    I agree, cults are supposed to be easier to join!

    But seriously, their lack of effort to reach a customer in this day in age with prices and a website that has a basic layout of products seems to be the audio note ‘way’.
     
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  13. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    Website has been updated, price list would be welcomed, yes. These are well known issues, also among AN users, as evidenced by discussions on this forum. Let us focus on the OPs question
     
  14. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Based on the preferences you have outlined I would recommend the Oto Silver Signature or Meishu Silver. You would like an integrated amp, if it can satisfy your sonic preferences. Well, you save a lot of money buying an integrated instead of a set of components, so in the Audio Note line, why not upgrade to a Silver Signature, and choose an integrated rather than separates? Personally, I like the impressive clutter of separates and high-end cables. In fact, mono amps are what I crave, even if their sonic benefit is minuscule. But that doesn't seem to be your cup of tea. I have heard all of these models you mentioned, and in every case going to the more premium component version of any given model makes a gigantic improvement in sound. For the money, a lesser model, but higher component version, gives you the best sound.

    Also, with HE speakers, you dont need more than 6 to 10 watts per channel, so a Jinro is overkill in power, but does not include the premium parts of a Meishu Silver Signature, for example. All you need, as an amplifier with your speakers, are EL-84 (Oto), 2A3 (Empress) or 300B (Meishu) output tubes, but with the internal component upgrades that will give you premium Audio Note sound quality.

    The above is simply my opinion. Every Audio Note fan you ask may answer differently, so you really have to choose YOUR preferences, not ours.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  15. slcaudiophile

    slcaudiophile Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    interesting post.

    to the OP: the nice thing about AN speakers (especially the AN-E Spe HE) is they are ~ 97/98 db efficient and can fill a room will stunning sound with just a couple of watts, specifically with amps like the 45 triode valve Paladin (~ 2 watts) or the 2a3 triode valve Vindicator (~3 or 4 watts). while these particular amps may not be for you (it is really based on your music collection and listening space), the main point i want make is <10 watts is 100% AOK with your speaker!

    good luck, have fun and more importantly ... enjoy your music!
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  16. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I don't hear a lot of good things about 300B's, but I have never had one myself.

    I have had a Line Magnetic 518iA SET and a Decware 3.9-Watt Single Ended Pentode, which is a beautiful sounding amp, based on a pair of 6V6GT tubes.

    Unless using NOS EL34's, which I am using in my L4 Audio Note Kit amp, I like modern production KT88's sound signature over other types of the larger power tubes, like modern EL34's and KT-120's.

    I don't care for lower powered class A/B amps in the 30-40 Watt power range running in the triode mode, which would be half the power of their class A/B ultralinear power rating.

    I do like higher powered amps like a Rogue Stereo 90 or a pair of Rogue M-150 monoblocks running in the half power triode mode.

    These amps when you need more power and control.

    I don't think they sound like single ended amps or even a quality amp with NOS EL34's running in class A/B.

    But most people can do with a bit more power and better microdynamics.
     
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  17. RH67

    RH67 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Simi Valley Ca.
    Then you have not heard the Shindo Western Electric 300B. I consider myself experienced, well the first time i heard that amp i was stunned, several decades later i still have not heard it`s equal. If i had the $$$$$$$$$ it would be in my home.
     
  18. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    A pair of 8w basic amplifiers at that price is beyond silly IMO. That's just my opinion; no disrespect to you, and no slam of the product.
    -Bill
     
  19. RH67

    RH67 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Simi Valley Ca.
    I agree and that is why i do not own them.
     
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  20. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    I agree that having available power opens doors for the user. The opposite is also true. One thing the OP has going for him, if he does get an AN amp is that he has AN HE speakers. That will help mitigate the power issue. It will also likely be a more perfect union with the amps sonic traits, as I suspect they were designed to compliment the output of their amps. The only issue that I see with the pairing is that it would be a sort of cul de sac destination. He might find it difficult to mate either the amp or the speakers better with other components. That may mean a whole new system at some point should he want to move things around the house or change locations or tastes entirely. My findings after many years of listening to tube amps of older design technology has been than it draws you in due to its unique sound for some time, but then as you listen longer, months and even years on, you discover that the coloration is great enough that it masks much of the original sound of the recordings. So you might like it for a while, but if you go all-in and run out of steam later, it's hard to change course. More power, and more neutrality in equipment sound (or lack thereof) and you can more easily find options that work for your changing needs.

    Having two systems is certainly a valid solution to this dilemma though. You can set-up one system that has the liquid sound of yesteryear for a romantic presentation, and one system that is transparent to allow any recording to show its unique character more readily without editing done by the playback system. In any case, my advice to the OP is simply for him to go in slowly and listen to what he has against what he might have to be sure that it isn't a circular path for him. It won't be an issue for him if money is of no concern. But if he is trying to find out what he likes best and get the best value, long term, then he really needs to do more personal listening and less internet browsing of what others think.
    -Bill
     
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  21. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    At a local dealership, I've heard various AN-E speakers, including the AN-E SEC Signature (very nice), with a variety of amps. The most commonly used amp by this dealer with the AN-E is a Kageki, which happens to be the Audio Note amp that also own. With just about any top quality amp, the AN-Es sound terrific. But, by a considerable margin, the two best amps I've heard with these speakers were NOT Audio Note amps. One was a custom-built OTL amp that is as close to being a one-of-a-kind amp (an amp designer examined this OTL amp and said that it is too difficult to build to be made into a commercial product) as anything I've seen. This OTL amp is incredibly vivid and lively sounding without being harsh or brittle. The other notable amp that, to me, out-shined the Kageki, is a Western Electric 59B (amp with extraordinarily rare 252 output tube), which is a pushpull triode amp. This amp is also considerably more vivid sounding than the Kageki, while also being warm and lush sounding. Both the OTL amp and the ultra-rare vintage WE amps are NOT commercial products. But, to me anyway, they demonstrate that there is not any one approach to amp design that is inherently superior.

    I like single-ended triode amps, particularly 2a3 and 45 tube types, but, I also like pushpull and OTL amps as well. I would never insist that SET is the only way to go, even with very high-efficiency speakers. As for particular tube types, that is very much a matter of taste. I've heard a number of very nice 300B and 211 amps (including Audio Note amps), but, I generally like the 45 more (as long as power isn't an issue) for SET amps. In pushpull amps, I like the 349 a lot (I currently run a pushpull 349 amp as my main amp), and I generally like the 6L6/350 tube too.

    Although Audio Note fans like to keep things in the family, I think the AN-E is an inherently easy to drive and a "forgiving" speaker (smooth non-edgy sound) that works with a wide range of gear.
     
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  22. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I can certainly respect your opinion and also that it is based on lots of experience. In the OP’s case, he has speakers that are 98db efficient. The need for higher power isn’t there, in his case.

    I went from a Simaudio Moon 600i integrated with 125 watts/channel, to the Meishu Silver, at 9 watts/channel - but the Meishu Silver was feeding the same speakers that the OP owns. The Simaudio fed Proac D40R speakers. I was quite shocked when I discovered that the Meishu Silver had better dynamics than the Moon 600i. All because it was the right speaker/amp matchup.

    I have a picture of my phone’s SPL app showing something like 103db because a friend of mine wanted to blast Money For Nothing at booty shaking levels! He was 45 going on 15 ; )

    My point being that with efficient speakers we were able to peal the paint in the room with a bunch of crazy audiophiles listening at the same time.

    That being said, you may still prefer the sound of the KT88 in triode mode and I may still prefer the sound of my 300B monoblocks.... To each his/her own!
     
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  23. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I like vintage amps with vintage speakers, vintage TT's with vintage cartridges.
     
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  24. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I like single ended amps but have no issue with either push-pull or high power A/B amps driving high sensitivity speaker's.

    I have three Rogue high power amps and I don't have any issues with them and my Altec's.

    I am just moving toward a more different sound these days. But I also wanted to reduce the operating costs.

    With the Rogue M-150 monoblock's, I am burning two quads of KT88's each time I light up the amps.

    I'm also being able to produce 150-Watts in the ultralinear mode and 75-Watts, running in the triode mode.

    I decided that I did not need to be running eight large power tubes, nor did I need that kind of power, which is why I started moving toward small Wattage amps in the first place.

    If you want tube sound, play you music loud and with incredible dynamics and do it with highly sensitive speaker's, then the M-150's are the right amp for the job.

    I have just been moving Rock to the back burner and listening to more Jazz, acoustic instrumentals and vocals, so I can tone down the dynamics and volume a wee bit these days.

    The Audio Note Kit L4 push-pull amp with NOS tubes sounds excellent and it only goes for $2,200 in kit form. A quad of NOS RFT tubes ran me $280.

    The little Decware 6V6GT Mini Torii that is my current favorite goto amp is the same price, but instead of 30-Watts, it is only 3.9-Watts.

    Even with sensitive speaker's, I am not going to blow any doors off, but it gets the job done nicely, when supplemented by a 12", 400-Watt subwoofer.
     
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  25. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Well this is one reason I prefer going with separates because no one power amp has total supremacy in every aspect. Neither do preamps.

    I remember on forums a SET owner switched to and raved about class D and 2 years later went back to SET. Another was raving about EMIA passive TVC preamps then 2 years later went back to active tube.

    Big KT 88 have an innediacy and control of the bass similar to SS. If you switch out, right now, a 300b tube amp with a big Bryston you WILL hear a massive change to the sound. A sparkle in the treble and supreme woofer control. And for a time it may sound better. But IMO it will fatigue over time and I agree with Peter that the added sound is grain not something actually present in reality.

    Something I tend to find in push pull tube amps.

    The 2a3 is a tweener amp. It has much of the delicacy of 300b and 45 but not quite. It has the big bold presentarion of the 211 but not quite.

    As my dealer in HK notes. He prefers the Jinro on 70% of his music and the Meishu Silver Sig on 30%.

    With all of these output tube types and different sound AND personal taste ideally you could have them all. AN dealers and the ultra rich can have them all.

    @KT88 I made an error. I did really like a KT88 amp from MasterSound or SoundMaster. They are based in Hong Kong and now only sell here. They are Gold colour amps. Anyway, they ran a KT88 with grey bittle tunes from PSvane and it was superb. And given a price under $3,000US I could easily live with that!

    So some of these things come down to the quality of the engineering, the parts quality and the tube and the tube life of the particlar amplifier.

    Type of Music played and indeed the age and hearing ability of the listener. When 70 year John Atkinson who doesn't listen to modern music and admitted years ago that he can't hear a lick over 10khz raves about a speaker - I am not sure that a 35 year old audiophile who listens to rock should pay much attention.

    The hobby is somewhat problematic because as people age our hearing becomes worse. But it's when we get older, generally, that we can afford the better sounding equipment. Only when we have the money to finally get the stuff we can't hear all of its goodness.
     
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