Audio Technica AT440MLa vs Shure M97xE w/Jico SAS

OK, I'm planning down the road for my next upgrade.

Since I already have a Shure M97xE, I'm thinking of picking up a Jico SAS stylus for it. I hear this is a great way to get the most out of the M97xE cart.

This would be a less expensive upgrade than simply purchasing a AT440MLa.

Anyone out there have experience of both? If so, which one tends to have sweeter highs? Better tracking? Less IGD?

 

I already have a Sure M97xE too. So, I am also interested in comments about the upgrade.

 

Great question!

 

I had an accident with my 440mla, which I was totally happy with the time. I used that opportunity to try out the SAS on an old M75 ED t2.

I was hugely impressed with it, so much so that when I got the chance to get a very cheap M97, I jumped at it and laid out for the 97 SAS.

I haven't even felt the need to get a replacement stylus for the 440. The old 75 with SAS is my backup cart.

 

Apples and oranges. The Shure will have fuller midrange than the AT and the AT will have an extended top and thinner mids vs. the Shure. I expect that the AT will have better channel separation and imaging. Both will have excellent tracking.

 

Totally agree, and something I forgot to mention in my post. The Shure is a much richer sound than the AT (in my experience).

On the Shure+SAS, fine treble detail was definitely there, and it emerged out of that richer background without sounding over-emphasised.

The treble on the AT sounded like I had turned the treble tone adjust up. Details were there, but it was always brightly lit.

It took me hearing the Shure+SAS for me to realise that it was not necessarily an either/or poposition.

 

So, have you tried a Jico replacement, or are you speculating?

 

Ha ha ha!

Great comment!. I don't have any experience with the 440, but I had a 150 which was much too bright for me. I do have a M97XE Jico SAS and a V15V Jico SAS. The Shure Jico SAS tipped cartridges are great in my system, in that they allow me to "enjoy" (which is key for me) records in various conditions in my system. I'm able to simply focus on the music, and when I make recordings they seem to impart that same "ease of listening" feeling.

M~

 

Liking what I'm hearing about the Jico stylus. My concern with the 440 is that I understand it's very unforgiving of residual uncleaned debris in the grooves.

 

The Shure measures like this:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/shure_m97xe_e.html

I.e. it steadily drops from the mids up to about 9000 Hz, then bumps up. To me it sounds muddy, cold and dark.

The AT measures with very low distortion--even their cheaper 120E has lower distortion than most every cartridge on the market but for more expensive AT's. It sounds it too--very clear and pristine. It is demonstrably as bright as the Shure is dark. It starts to rise in the treble to a 5dB peak. Despite being bright, it is not aggressive because it is so clean. It's just super clear, and thinned out a bit. Spotlit but not harsh. It tracks very very well and you will hear less inner groove distortion than on most any cartridge. Great snap but not a rich sound. Great match with an AR, Linn, Thorens-type or a SL1200, which have bass richness which compensates for the cartridge.

My clear bias is the AT--you can turn down the treble but you can never correct for distortion. But as with all phono cartridges, it is a matter of taste.

 

Just remember that the op's question re: the M97 was specifically with the SAS stylus in place, as it makes a hell of a difference.

I'm not even particularly down on the AT either, it is very good and I was entirely happy with it until I heard the Shure+SAS combo.

 

Exactly. I already know it's no contest between the stock M97xE and the AT440. I'm trying to decide if buying the Jico SAS and upgrading my M97xE is a better bet than buying the AT440.

It's a sub-$200 purchase for the Jico SAS, but I'll have to set aside money for a few months because the household budget is tighter than a congressman being asked to pay more taxes.

 

Excellent question.

I have owned an AT440MLa and know it well, and I currently own a an M97xE with the standard stylus. I also own or have owned vintage Shures (M91ED, V15-IV) with JICO SAS installed, so I am familiar with how they can transform Shure cartridges.

Additionally, I have heard sample needledrops of the M97xE with both the stock and SAS styli, which gave me an opportunity to compare them, although I can't say that I have heard the M97xE with SAS "live and in person."

So, to answer your question, my response is based at least partially on informed speculation.

If I had to make a choice on which one to get, I would get the Shure/JICO. If there's option to adjust the loading on the AT to around 37k or so, the choice is not as easy for me to make.

 

I have both cartridges and prefer the Shure/Jico combo (I also prefer the stock Shure to the AT, but by a much smaller margin). I found the AT a bit too bright on my setup (though it is certainly not a bad choice). IMHO the Shure/Jico is in a different league.

Thommo's experience with Shure/Jico mirrors mine. Retains the M97XE's richness, while adding detail and curing the M97XE's dull-ish nature. Tracks like a champ, too.

 

I have found that I prefer AT carts over Shure.

 

Fair enough, but the 150MLX is a great cartridge anyway you slice it.

 

I have both, and I have done a video review of the AT440mla (see the review here on YouTube.)

The Shure sounds "meatier" to me but, with the standard stylus, it may be a bit too mellow. Which makes it perfect, IMO, for systems that are on the bright or lean side.

In my case, with Shindo electronics and Tannoy speakers, the 440mla sounds just right.

Bottom-line, it depends a lot on what sound you crave and the rest of your system. I must say that the 440mla completely gets rid of any inner-groove distortion - it's simply not an issue with this cart.

Hope this helps.

Alberto

 

I mostly do needledrops with my AT150mlx. I think I found a fairly flat EQ curve for it down to 800Hz. It sounds nice, and looks sexy too. But I shouldn't have to go through trying to tame it's damn brightness! It tracks like no other cart I have ever owned, but...it's too bright! That's why i'm wondering about the SAS tweak for the Shure cart. Now that I have read many, many glowing reviews about it, I think that at first opportunity, I will take the plunge.

 

I don't find it to be bright. It can sound dull with certain LPs.

Why do you find it to be too bright? What is your VTF? I recommend 1.5g Anything lighter will result in too lean of a sound, imo.

 

I've had them both and kept the Shure M97 with Jico. Dont get me wrong the AT440ml is one heck of a tracker but thought it was a tad bit bright. The Shure with Jico seemed more natural and even sounding. Plus when properly aligned its tracks like a champ. 2 cents

 

The VTF is set at exactly 1.5, as measured with both my Sure gauge and the counterweight.

Well, there are several things that could be at work here:

the loading on your preamp is taming the cart

something in your system is taming it's brightness

you like a bright sound

or your high frequency hearing isn't that great.

 

Well, I can hear up until about 18khz.

Why do you think it's bright? I can crank the damn thing up with no harshness.

Maybe I do like a bright-er sound, but again, it depends on the record. Some records sound a bit bright, but some sound a bit dull, and some sound just right.

No taming of brightness by the system.

 

Sorry, it didn't cut it for me, no matter how I sliced it. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a great cartridge, it just comes down to a matter of preferences.

BTW, a killer cartridge combo is the V15V MR with the JICO SAS.

M~

 

That's fine, and exactly. I bet it is!

 

I liked the 440MLa and thought that the 150MLX was significantly better, but in the long run both carts were too bright for my tastes, so I decided to buy a Jico SAS for my old Shure V15xMR and I haven't looked back since.