Audiophile Snake Oil?

I have what I would class as a decent mid range system. Yamaha A-S 700 Amp, Technics SL-1210Mk2 Turntable with Ortofon Super OM30 cart, Musical Fidelity V90 LPS phono stage and Wharfedale Xarus 5000 speakers. I have many needledrops done by the well known PBTHAL with his very high end setup, VPI scoutmaster, trans-fi terminator air bearing arm etc. I also own copies of the same records he needledropped. I have made my own needledrops using the above equipment just fed into the Line In jack on my PC (Conexant Smart Audio HD) I consider myself an audiophile with excellent sensitive hearing and to my ears, my needledrops sound very nearly as good as PBTHAL's. I can easily tell the difference between different Vinyl pressings done by different cutting engineers so my hearing must be quite good.

The question is, is very expensive so called "audiophile" grade equipment just snake oil? I understand better, more expensive gear offers improved sound but is this improvement just subtle and not something big?

 

I'm not a big gear guy but I think that the benefits of a high-end system are not necessarily discernible by comparing needledrops. I have a very modest system and I do needledrops and I've actually created some that I like better than those done by others with better systems (No, I'm not gonna share them because I don't wanna find out what's wrong with them ). But it's extremely doubtful that what comes out of my speakers is as good as what comes out of PBTHAL's. You have to compare system to system, not needledrop to needledrop.

 

I was surprised by the quality I got just using the onboard Conexant Smart Audio HD soundcard, I don't even use an external!

 

Typically the considerably higher priced gear also has quite noticeably higher performance. There are even many components that are not terribly expensive, rather just a bit more than the decent stuff which provide better performance at very good values. Now that said, you can screw-up anything. It is possible to select odd combinations of nice equipment that do not compliment each other and wind-up with a system that doesn't sound any better on the whole than an average system.

You should just make it a point to visit a nice hi-fi shop or two, even if it means traveling a short distance and asking for an appointment, just to hear what some of the more expensive equipment can do. When you return, if you are truly an "audiophile with excellent sensitive hearing", you'll be looking over your finances.

-Bill

 

Oh boy....here weee goooo.....

 

Nothing against PBTHAL's drops, I believe he is a forum member or was, some may like them others not, I've heard some excellent drops done in the needledrop thread with far less expensive equipment that to me sounded better, IMO, Condition of the lp is key, I prefer my own drops for the simple fact that I like how my cart/set up sounds

 

I was expecting a rant against something like the LessLoss Blackbody or the $6K Anjou speaker cables. I am disappointed.

 

No, the question is why you've pivoting from describing your contentment and happiness with your very nice hi-fi system to posing an inflammatory rhetorical question that seems steeped in a mixture of insecurity about the performance of your gear and a passive-aggressive and under-informed skepticism about the sonic virtues of pricey gear. It's going to be very difficult to procure sincere and calm answers with this approach; a phrase like "just snake oil" is just going to get people riled up.

Rather than shadow-boxing in the ghostly and silent arena of internet wrangling, you would be well-advised instead to explore the qualities of more expensive gear, as KTBB suggests, by going out and listening to it. I'd be interested in learning what you find out. I'm not interested in answering the question you've posed because I don't believe it was offered in good faith.

 

I'll answer - if you can hear a difference in more expensive/different gear and the differences are TO YOU worth paying what they're asking, it's all NOT snake oil. If you don't hear a difference or the differences are not important to you, it's STILL not snake oil, it just means you're not sensitive or don't care about the differences. Sure, some things are pretty 'out there' but if someone hears a difference in cable elevators, magic clocks, etc., and wants to pay for them, I am not going to call something snake oil because I don't hear a difference and/or aren't willing to listen and pay for such things.

I could hear a difference using a $50 fuse in my previous tube preamp, it isn't snake oil to me, and was money well spent. YMMV etc. etc. ...

 

I'm with you on this cause I've noticed the same thing with a lot of the vinyl rips I have compared to my own copy on vinyl played on my SL1200mk2 equipped with a lowly Shure V15III and Jico SAS stylus. Some of these TT's/stylii and related audio gear that have been used to do these hi-res rips/needle drops are some really high end priced units. I quite frankly don't hear anything that would induce me to run out and spend thousands on equipment that IMO is well into the realm of deminishing returns.

 

Go for high-fidelity, not necessarily just high end. There is a big difference. One gets you gear that costs a lot of money, the other gets you gear that gives you a pretty faithful representation of the original recording, but needn't necessarily be eye-wateringly expensive.

 

Well, you're listening to both through your system, so there will be some commonality in the overall tone profile I'd have to suggest. The Yamaha & Wharfedales must be putting some of their own stamp on whatever you listen to.

I mean - if you've listened to his drops and your drops, AND they've sounded not a million miles apart, that's a good thing surely?

 

Ok, the captain has turned on the fasten seat belt sign, please remain in your seats for your own safety.



Oops!

 

Audiophile snake oil? You should try it! A little dab'll do ya!

In fact, I'm soaking in it...

 

OK, first of all, everybody in this conversation is likely defining "mid-level or mid-fi" and "high end/audiophile" quite differently based on our circumstances and experiences. For instance, I would consider my $20k-ish system or one like it mid-fi (the low end of the high end or entry-level audiophile).

I don't have the sensitive audiophile ears, but if we're talking about actual components rather than cables or peripheral/tweak stuff, then the differences between, say, a $500 and $5000 turntable+cart are not subtle; they are immediately and dramatically audible. Same goes for, say, $800 vs $2500 speakers -- a stop-you-in-your-tracks, "it's like I never heard this record before" level of difference. And I don't mean ultra-mega-big bucks -- there's an audible difference between a $120 CD player and a $400-500 one.

It's why I always counsel people that if they're wanting to upgrade, it behooves them not to make incremental baby-steps improvements but save their pennies and make a significant upgrade in quality. Because oh yes indeedy, you will hear it. But the thing is, if the system you have is working for you and you're enjoying the music you're getting out of it, that's really all you need to know or care about. Who cares if someone else's stereo sounds better? Yours sounds great.

 

I prefer to smoke it. Enhances my perception of highs.

 

All I know is I recabled my tape deck leads and turntable leads into my integrated amp using Audioquest cabling and I can hear a difference. Stuff wasn't hundreds per foot, but still quite happy I did the upgrade. Don't think it's snake oil; but if you can hear a difference if it's only psychological, it's worth it. This IS a hobby after all. To each his own

 

My favorite upgrade, just takes a couple of glasses of wine (I prefer Port; after dinner of course).

 

I've heard high end systems that sounded great, and a lot better than my mid fi system when playing great recordings. Fortunately for me, I also heard a bad recording on the same system and it was unlistenable. That cured me from every wanting a high end system. I want to be able to listen to great music even if the only available recordings are horriblely recorded or mastered.

 

You can't compare systems using needle drops. That just compares the TT and phonostage, not the entire system, and then you throw a ADC soundcard into the mix which you would not be there listening to the system, and finally, you are listening to the needledrop through your system. Comparing needledrops and systems is apples and watermelons (oranges would be too close a comparison).

 

What I've personally learned from my own comparisons that is that I don't necessary like someone else's setup, even if the costs of that setup are much higher than mine.

There is certain synergy between components and one's own ears that is going to be fairly unique. It's almost like owning an old pair of shoes that feel great on your feet. If your drops sound better to your ears, then just enjoy them!

 

Sometimes sourcing your componants from the same manufacturer pays off. Hence my Rega centric system. The only deviations are Kimber cables and REL sub bass system...

 

Sometimes it's just dumb luck. I have a headphone / DAP combo, for example, that for whatever reason just "clicks".

 

I so count on dumb luck (seems I've based my whole life on it).

 

I'm the opposite. If it's a crap recording, I want to know. I'd go crazy listening to a system that hid the bad with the good or downright astounding.