Audyssey MultEQ XT32: confession of a digital room correction convert

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by SamS, Mar 12, 2012.

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  1. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend Thread Starter

    Location:
    Texas
    Like many of you here, I consider myself a bit of a purist when it comes to my listening, and my gear. I always run my stereos "flat", no EQ, pure DSD (where applicable) and try to maximize my sound enjoyment via careful selection of gear, speaker placement and room treatment.

    In the past, I've used the Denon AVR-4806CI as a pre-amp, and now the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, both of which use Audyssey XT for speaker/sub digital room EQ. I originally had an open mind about using XT, taking care to get good measurements with the mic, and doing thorough A/B'ing. I did this in two different houses/rooms, with both the 4806CI and AVP. Try as I might, I never got a good sound. What I heard was a "cupped" sound, that was not at all natural compared to a bypassed setting. There was no chance I could ever consider this for music, and even movies sounded too unnatural to me.

    Last year, Denon announced an upgrade to their AVR-5308CI receiver and my AVP processor. The hardware and software update added 3D support as well as the new Audyssey XT32 processing. I am fortunate enough to have an authorized Denon service center nearby, so a couple of weeks ago I ordered the upgrade kit and had it installed.

    I honestly had set myself up for low expectations, given my previous experiences. After around and hour of configuration, setup of sources, and the automated Audyssey pings and measurement, I sat down for a listen. There is a front panel button to let me toggle between DIRECT and XT32. I focused on 5.1 SACDs at first, including James Taylor's JT. I was pretty shocked when I started listening. Not only did it sound good, it sounded natural. Dare I say, better than anything I've ever heard in my room before? Switching XT32 off, the vocals took on a more pinched sound and even that "cupped hands" quality that I hadn't previously noticed.

    I really couldn't believe what I was hearing. I even switched off XT32 do the DSD MC DIRECT mode (pure DSD to analog) and tried to tell my brain this was a better, more pure version of the sound. No matter, it just never sounded as good as with XT32. I think 5.1 needs the XT32 more so than standard stereo, just due to room reflections, subwoofer integration, etc. For stereo listening, I'm sticking with my old fashioned DIRECT 2.0 (for now!). One of the nicest things that using XT32 allows me to do is use Audyssey's Dynamic Volume. This allows me to watch those blockbuster movies later at night without waking the family. Until now, my thumb was always on the volume button, struggling to hear the speaking and not blow the wall off the house :D .

    It has been discovered that the Denon 5308CI/AVP upgrade uses a trio of SHARC Hammerhead 21487 DSP chips. One is dedicated to the Audyssey XT32 processing. This is a powerful chip.

    I'm just posting this because I have always been the person who chuckles a bit when I read about people enjoying the various Room EQs built-in to their HT receiver. I thought I'd go to my grave never hearing something that would be considered "audiophile" quality. And I've heard most of the room EQs out there. This is it folks, I'm never going to consider another processor or receiver again unless it has Audyssey XT32, or whatever will replace it. I realize it is almost impossible to demo this correction EQ, but if you were considering it, but never thought it could pass the audiophile test, I'm telling you that I know it can.

    I just found out that Audyssey XT32 was named Stereophile's Joint Accessory of the Year for 2011. Pretty crazy, considering the types of products they normally recommend.
     
  2. laughalot

    laughalot Forum Resident

    How does the EQ sound if you move out of the sweet spot (normal listening Position) to other positions in the room?
     
  3. gd0

    gd0 Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies

    Location:
    Golden Gate
    Sam,

    I know it's connection-dependent, but since you are so deliberately testing with music, can you tell me if the Denon exhibits any delay/dropout at the beginning of music tracks, wherein the first .5 - 1 second of music is not heard?

    It's been a recurring problem for years, and apparently has carried over into the HDMI age. Though I see occasional mention of it on AVS and elsewhere, it seems like it's never addressed. Maybe because the predominant usage is movies, where it's not noticed or problematic.

    Hope the other manufacturers see fit to include XT32 soon.
     
  4. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend Thread Starter

    Location:
    Texas
    Good question. It actually sounds normal, i.e just fine.


    There is definitely no delay or drop out with music tracks. I think this is more to do with system architecture than anything. On my processor, the decoding is now done by an (upgraded) SHARC 21487 DSP chip. This hands off directly to another 21487 chip that does the XT32 processing. After than it can be routed to a third 21487 for THX processing (I bypass this), then directly to the DACs.

    In other words, the audio stream that the internal DAC gets has already been processed by XT32, so it behaves exactly as it would if it was coming straight off the initial decoder.
     
  5. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Thanks for the report. Was this with the included microphone, or did you use Audyssey PRO via a laptop?

    I'm no longer on the frontlines anymore, so don't know, but I would be curious to see how the user XT32 compares with the old XT with the PRO setup. Doing Audyssey PRO, I've found, is even better than the regular Audyssey setup using the included cheapie microphone (which is great enough on it's own for HT use). I did Audyssey PRO on my 5308, and have been extremely happy with it. I may go with other electronics for stereo listening, and I go direct for music, but for HT, I am an unabashed Audyssey fanboy. Not a replacement for room treatments, of course, but it is a very powerful tool, even in atrocious room environments (was able to get staggeringly respectable sound out of a 100% concrete, brick, tile, and glass hot-tub room with cheap in-ceiling speakers using end user Audyssey once, kind of blew my mind).
     
  6. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend Thread Starter

    Location:
    Texas
    Chris,

    I was using the included mic, which they give you a new version when you get the upgrade. It looks similar to the old one.

    I will probably spring for the Pro kit, soon. I am lucky enough to have a decent room, but the improvements of the EQ where quite obvious.

    If you like regular XT, it's hard to imagine you would not be grinning after hearing XT32. "Transparent" is the best word I can use to describe it.
     
  7. smackrabbit

    smackrabbit Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    I have never liked Audyssey for 2 channel either, but after reviewing the Onkyo 5508 with XT32 I really liked it. I think it finally had enough resolution to not cause the weird diffused sound that I always heard from Audyssey before. I didn't turn it off after that initial test until I sent it back.
     
  8. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic

    Interesting. When I bought my new amp and speakers, I ran Audyssey on the first day and it set all the channels to minus numbers, got the left front speaker 2db louder than the right, did all kinds of crazy stuff.

    So eventually I gradually tweaked all the speaker levels manually until I was happy. But I do wonder if I did something wrong and should give it another go...

    Is it generally recommended to use, if you have it?
     
  9. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I would definitely recommend using it if you have it, for surround use. You do have to do it properly with as many locations as possible around your primary listening location(s).

    Link to outside forum for useful guide:

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895

    See also: http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/faq

    It calibrates zero to reference, so it may set all the speakers generally plus or minus depending on the sensitivity of the particular speakers.

    I have always found speaker level settings provided by Audyssey to be very accurate compared to professional measurements, provided you deploy Audyssey correctly.
     
  10. rbbert

    rbbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, NV, USA
    Some engineers have reported that mounting the microphone on a mic boom (rather than a camera tripod) and using at least 8 measuring positions results in much better sound, even with plain old Audyssey XT.
     
  11. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    ^ I have always used a tripod, don't know how you would accomplish that with a boom mic and holding it steady. However, I always recommend using the maximum number of positions (unless you're doing PRO, because you can do like 32 or something, which would take you all day, I think I did like 15 or something when I did my setup, I can't remember exactly.
     
  12. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend Thread Starter

    Location:
    Texas
    All channels with negative dB cut is not that bad of a thing. It is just measuring the proper volume so when you hit 0.0dB on your receiver it is reference level. And 2dB louder is a bit abnormal, but not really because most rooms are not symmetrical with regards to placement, furniture, etc.

    I'd give it another shot with the measurements.

    I used a tripod, and took a lot of car with my measurements. Making sure my own body reflections wouldn't impact the measurements, getting everything in the house quiet, etc.
     
  13. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    What does the PRO level do? I can never keep their flavors straight, and their info is vague (deliberately I think).
     
  14. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    The PRO setup you pay extra for the license, and a re-seller who has been 'trained' shows up with a professional microphone and laptop software, and measures everything on the laptop. It allows for many more measurement positions, and garners you the benefit of a much more expensive XLR microphone, rather than the cheap one that comes with the unit. The calculations are done inside the laptop, which allows for more powerful processing (they couldn't get enough processing power inside the receivers at the time, according to Kriakis (sp?)), particularly (if I recall correctly) in the bass region. The correction curves are then uploaded from the laptop onto the receiver.

    It also allows, should you wish, to create your own custom curves inside the laptop to do anything you want. And while the factory-Audyssey calibration just gives you a "flat" or "audyssey" EQ curve option, the PRO settings in the laptop also gives you a couple of slightly different midrange/treble options that are appropriate for different room sizes or to taste.

    It has been a while since I did the whole PRO setup on my 5308, so I'm trying to remember from foggy memory, but that's more or less what the deal was. I am not sure what the retail cost was, I want to say like $250 or $450 or something like that.

    Again, this is rough memory, so if you want to know the nitty gritty details, I suggest you spend some time googling, I'm sure it's all out there somewhere.
     
  15. proufo

    proufo Forum Resident

    Does this affect the playback of stereo sources?
     
  16. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    If you decide to use it for stereo sources, sure. You can enable/disable Audyssey or any of the other features on your receiver as you wish.
     
  17. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I don't use it for stereo. Multichannel only.
     
  18. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend Thread Starter

    Location:
    Texas
    Nice recap on the Pro kit. The MSRP is $550 + $150 for a license.

    The Pro kit is not really for end users, more for custom installers looking to maximize the performance of those $50K+ theaters. However, I'm never one to do anything half-way, so I'll probably pick up a Pro kit for my own personal use :)

    Last night, I watched Hugo on Blu-ray. The sound is absolutely fantastic with the XT32 implementation. It may be the best sound from any movie I've heard. I checked later, and saw it won two Oscars for sound.
     
  19. proufo

    proufo Forum Resident

    I understand the Audissey ambiance effects with extra speakers work only with multichannel sources. Is that so?
     
  20. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend Thread Starter

    Location:
    Texas
    Correct. Audyssey DSX (includes height and/or width) must begin with a 5.1 source. You could used Dolby Pro Logic IIz for height channel if you're starting with stereo sources. I'm pretty sure you can overlay the XT32 processing to DPL IIz, but I haven't tried that yet.
     
  21. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I wasn't aware you could buy the Pro Kit, did Denon change their tune? A couple years ago, only Denon installers could have the kit to do the PRO setups, we had a client for whom we were able to get the PRO kit, but it was only because the Denon and Audyssey folks were working together to hack some gear for us to do some unique things. But it was still jumping through hoops like crazy.
     
  22. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend Thread Starter

    Location:
    Texas
    End users are not supposed to be able to buy a Pro kit, but there is an online retailer who sells them. Registering the kit appears to be rather easy, done online.
     
  23. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend Thread Starter

    Location:
    Texas
    Any Audyssey users playing with DynamicEQ?

    I tried it a bit last night, and the default movies setting (0db) was pretty good. I also tried 15dB for well recorded Blu-rays (like Pink Floyd) and found the 10dB setting sounded pretty good. The 15dB setting had virtually no effect compared to Off, but I will experiment more.
     
  24. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I swear by Dynamic EQ for HT. It's amazing.
     
  25. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend Thread Starter

    Location:
    Texas
    What offset do you use?
     
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