axis: bold as love - different mixes available on official CD releases

Actually Paul, the new EH remaster is not that bad. It has punch and sizzle, and everybody knows that that's what the public wants, LOL.

 

So let's see where we are with answers to the questions I posed about the 2 mixes......

Original UK Track and US Reprise vinyl do indeed use different mixes (let's refer to them as the UK and US mixes, respectively)

The EH remaster uses the US mix.

The West German Polydor CD (813 572-2) uses a different mix to the EH remaster.

So my fisrt question is half answered:

(i) Do these two CDs represent the original UK and US mixes and, if so, which is which?

The EH remaster uses the US mix. However, we still need to know if the West German Polydor uses the UK mix of some other mix (my guess is that it is the UK mix but it would be nice to have someone confirm it by comparing a Track original with my notes).


The second question seems to have a definitive answer:

(ii) Do all editions of the Experience Hendrix release use the same mix as the Japanese edition?

Yes.

The answer to the third question is less clear:

(iii) Is the West German Polydor CD unique or did the mix on that disc appear on other CD releases of the album prior to the EH remasters?

The general consensus seems to be that the US Reprise CD uses the US mix, although Ed B has other ideas - can you clarify this Ed? . However, we have seen that not all Polydor CD editions of the album are the same as the West German one so maybe there are different incarnations of the Reprise edition using either of the two mixes?

Bob points out that there is at least one Polydor edition (847 243-2 Made in the UK) that contains "essentially the same mix" as the EH editions - Bob could you verify whether or not this is the same mix throughout?

Then there are the Japanese Polydor CD pressings - Rocky, can you confirm that the P20P pressing lines up with my West German pressing in using the UK mix (I assume this is what you were saying but it was a little ambiguous). Also, does the P33P also use the UK mix?

Well, I think that it is a pretty big issue! We are talking about one of the greatest recording masterpieces of all time. A record which was breaking totally new ground musically and technically. In particular, completely new mixing techniques were being developed in the process of making this album. I gather that this album is the first example of the phasing effect being implemented in stereo - that's a pretty important moment in the history of recorded music as far as I'm concerned. .

Now, we often hear the story of Jimi losing the reel for side one of the final mix and Eddie having to mix those tracks all over again. But, I've never heard him talk about remixing the whole album for the American market! I am curious as to why I have two mixes of this album and believe that, by piecing together the evidence that we can glean from each other, we could ascertain the origin of the two mixes. For me, that is a very worthwhile endeavor!

Thanks for everyone's help in figuring out the details on this issue! Of course, it helps that we are scrutinizing an incredible album - it makes the listening and re-listening a complete pleasure!

We just need a little more info and then we will have solved the mystery .

 

I did check all the tracks that you described as essentially different, I didn't hear any inconsistencies with the EH mix.

That 847 # would seem to put it late in the Polydor series; perhaps the last before the '93 MCAs. And I liked the mastering well enough to have no qualms about trading in my EH edition last year. The EH is easiest to replace anyway.

 

Marc,
I agree, it is a masterpiece, I think lyrically and musically it's Jimi at is finest. But, if you listen to the U.K. or the U.S. mix, you're still listening to the same versions or performances, if you will, of the same songs. I'm happy I have two mixes I can enjoy.

Marc, with all due respect, you're making it sound like they're taking this title off the market. This title is easy-ally available for anyone who wants it. I don't see what you are trying to achieve here. There was a U.K. mix and there was a U.S. mix. No matter what you find out isn't going to change that. But if it's that important to you, I may suggest that you try to seek out Eddie Kramer. I'm sure he has a website, you can try e-mailing him. Or, see if any websites about Jimi Hendrix has any information on this. I'm sure there is someone out there that can give you the info that you're after.

Great thread!

 

I wish that there was a readily available email address for Eddie Kramer so that I could contact him and tell how terrible the Experience Hendrix remasters sound. These remasters are the worse sounding CDs I have ever heard, and it is a shame that they have treated Jimis work to this horrible treatment.

 

Joe, the U.K mix is no longer in print, is what I think is being said. BTW I was the one initially who brought this up initially so I feel responsible for putting in my two cents, which are, if this lp came out first at the beginning of December 1967 in Britain with this OOP mix, and the U.S. lp came out in Jan or Feb 1968 with the other mix, then wouldn't this constitute a changing of history, meaning - no option? (think mono/stereo Beatles options for eg)

In my mind, Kramer did not provide the mix that he made, most likely with Jimi in the same room as him for univeral worldwide release. That should be addressed. Just like "Sgt. Pepper" should come out as a mono mix again for our appreciation as well. It is serious, because being that Jimi is gone, we don't know really if the U.K. was his real vision of the project. The mixing is quite radical in some respects so it isn't a small issue either.
I see your point however, that we should enjoy this music for what it is. But we're all geeks here so, this is the kind of have no life thing we belabour upon!!!

 

I'm not sure it would do much good. The link below is a response from EH and George Marino to a fan that wrote to them complaining about their maximized CD's.

http://home.pacific.net.au/~spaceman/jimi/clipping.htm

 

Joe,

well, I suppose they have taken the UK mix off the market if that matters to anyone. I'm OK because I have it already but for those who might want it I feel it's important to ascertain which LP and CD editions it can be found on.

I think it is very easy to underestimate the importance of the final mix in assessing the recorded work of an artist. Take Phil Spector's mix of Let It Be (the track itself) compared with George Martin's for example. Same performances (apart from the guitar solo!) but vastly different overall listening experience.....

In the case of these two mixes of "axis: bold as love" the differences may be considered to be minor, but the overall listening experience is significantly different in my opinion.

Hey, you've reminded me of another question I want the answer to - were Eddie Kramer and Jimi Hendrix resposible for both of these mixes or was one made by someone else?......

I'd love to get in touch with Eddie - but it would be good to learn what we can about which mixes appear on which editions and between us forum members we must have pretty much every version ever released so it seems a good place to ask the questions. Once we know everything we can about the releases of the different mixes we can then take it to Eddie and see if he can remember how the two mixes came about!

By the way, I've never read anything on the web explaining the background to the two mixes - if anyone finds anything I'd love to hear it.

Malc [not Marc ]

 

This whole Axis mess is really interesting. I know several Hendrix fans have noticed the mix difference but outside of fan comments I've never heard any remotely official word on the 2 mixes. I can't imagine that anyone went back and remixed Axis after it was released. There is the oft told story about Jimi leaving the finished Side 2 master in a cab and they had to remix all of Side 2 (save for If 6 Was 9 where they used Noel's personal dub) in one night. I hope someone can get to the bottom of this....

Chris

 

According to Eddie Kramer it was side one that was lost - indeed, "If 6 Was 9" is the last track on side one.

Stories of them ironing Noel's tape copy of "If 6 Was 9" to get the wrinkles out must be greatly exaggerated .... surely .

Like you, I find it hard to believe that Eddie and Jimi would have wanted to mix the album again especially given the fuss Eddie makes about having to re-mix side one. And yet, Eddie used the US remix for the EH re-issue - the plot thickens.....

The odd thing to me is that, for example, the different mixes of "You Got Me Floatin'" must have been made in the same session or, at the very least, very close to each other as the psychedelic effects are so similar in sound - unless they existed on another tape and were "flown in"? Even if that is true, my gut instinct is that most, if not all, of these mixes were probably alternates made during the same mix sessions.

Who knows - maybe one day we'll get some answers.

 

Sorry!

Malc, I agree! Although, I personally feel that the U.S. mix sounds more complete to me and maybe a hair better. But, that could be the fact that, that's the mix I grew up on. To tell you the truth, I prefer the U.K. mix of "Up From The Skies" for the simple fact that Jimi's vocals are centered. The U.S. mix has he's vocals panning left and right, which IMO makes the mix feel more gimmicky. You are right, the differences are slight but they both have a totally different feel to them.

True, and it's quite possible that they gave Track Records a mix and then they continued to do more mixing (like Martin with the Beatles). The second mix (or version) was then give to Reprise for the U.S. mix.

You have to remember, back in 1968, we didn't have import records flying back in forth between the different countries. Maybe back then, they didn't think the mixes would ever cross paths.

Also, the mono mix was out of print for years and years, until Classic Records gave it a reissue. How do we know the mono mix may have been the *correct* mix. Who knows?

Again, great thread!

 

Okay, time to stir up this can of worms once again...

According to Douglas Bell's extremely comprehensive Hendrix discography, the alternate version that we've all been referring to as the "UK mix"--that is, the one on the 1973 AYE/Axis twofer, and the 1989 Polydor CD--is not to be found on the original 1968 UK stereo LP (Track 613 003). Mr. Bell indicates that this alternate mix was originally released by Polydor in Germany, Spain, Israel, and Japan, and that its first UK appearance was on Backtrack 11 (Track 2407 011), released in 1970. So if his information is correct, then we must assume that the true original UK and US mixes are, in fact, one and the same!

So...is there anyone out there with an original UK Track stereo Axis who can confirm this?

(Intriguingly, Mr. Bell also indicates that, whereas the Japanese Polydor P20P CD uses the standard mix, the P33P uses the alternate. Could Therockman step in and compare the two for us?)

--Paul Curtis

 

Great work , Paul!

We could do with someone comparing the original UK Track LP to the other releases to be certain but I like the explanation you've found best so far.....

We still need to know the origin of the alternate stereo mix of course....

 

I will indeed sit down and give a listen to the P20P Polydor Axis and compare that to the P33P Japanese Polydor. I got the P20P from a girl a couple of years back that said it sounded different, but she could not explain why. The P20P is deffinately the copy of this classic album to own, it is not only scare but the sound detail would compare to a well done SACD as far as overall smoothness and frequency extension, and the sonic detail is so clear that you can hear notes drop from Jimi's fingers. Because of all this, I have not really played the P33P that much, but I will give the 2 a good listen.

 

Someone recently sold both copies of the Japanese CD's on eBay and the P33 was still sealed. The OBI strip on P33 said "remixed and remastered" so take that as you will.

 

I am very sorry that this comparrison has taken me so long, but my Mom has been in the hospital and I have been with her every day. It seems that the only copies of AXIS: BOLD AS LOVE that I own are:
Japanese Polydor P20P
Japanese Polydor P33P
MCA Mankowitz remastered version from 1993
MCA Experience Hendrix version from 1997

The following comments are only in regard to these CDs, I do not own any Hendrix vinyl, and I am not familiar with any Hendrix vinyl. Because of this, the comments that I can make have to be expounded on by a person with more knowledge regarding Hendrix vinyl.

That said, I compared the P20P with the 1993 remaster and found that these 2 versions are different, the P20P apparently containg some kind of "alternate" version. But it is absolutely deffinate that the P33P has the same exact version as the 1993 Mankowitz remaster, thus the P20P and the P33P are deffinately different versions. I did not compare these versions with the Experience Hendrix version, but if it neccasary I could do that once things around my house calm down.

 

Interesting...according to Mr. Bell's discography, it's the P33P that uses the alternate mix!

So, between the P20P and the Mankowitz, which one has that floaty psychedelic intro to "You Got Me Floating"? That's the quickest way to tell between the two versions. (The alternate version starts in with Jimi's guitar, just like the mono mix.)

--Paul Curtis

 

Yes, this is a wonderful thread! Is there anybody or any source out there that could tell us if the stereo mix is the definite mix, or is it the mono mix? Is it possible that some of the songs were orginally mixed in mono, while others were mixed in stereo, making every mono and stereo copy of AXIS a hybrid?

 

It is the P33 with the alternate mix. The obi strip for this release says "remixed and remastered". This same alternate mix is on the W. German Polydor which says, interestingly enough, "digital engineering by Carlos Olms London" and has an "ADD" SPARS code.

 

Like I said earlier, I really have no knowledge of the vinyl issues of this album, so by my stating that the P20P has a different mix than the 1993 MCA Mankowitz remaster and the P33P has the same mix as the 1993 Mankowitz remaster is only a comparrison of these three mixes. Indded the P33P and the Mankowitz might both be using the alternate mix, and the P20P might be using what was once considered to be the "proper" mix. What we need now is a person with various copies of black vinyl to compare, give us the difinitive description of early UK vinyl versions, and then we can line them up with the CD releases of this great title.

 

...though supposedly, this mix first appeared in Germany, Spain, Israel, and Japan, back in 1968! So unless there are three stereo versions of Axis, I think that SPARS code must be considered erroneous...

--Paul Curtis

 

Well, yes, that's what I'm trying to determine! We're still not sure about the original UK vinyl--according to Doug Bell, it's the same as the US version that we're all familiar with, but then again, he also claims that both the P20P and the '93 Mankowitz use the same mix, and since you've indicated otherwise, I guess we can't regard Bell's information as 100% accurate.

Can you at least let us know whether the P20P has the "floaty" backwards intro on "You Got Me Floating"? As I said, that's the quickest way to tell between the two versions.

--Paul Curtis

 

Olms could have ran the tape through a digital EQ mixer or something. I never took the "ADD" code as meaning the label went back to the multi's and remixed in digital although we now need to leave that possibility open.

We do need original vinyl pressings to get a grip on this. This alternate mix could have first surfaced in the 1980's on some non-U.S. CD's.

 

Well, there have been several reports (on this very forum) that the 1973 UK AYE/Axis two-fer uses the alternate version, so again, unless there are three stereo mixes of Axis, it must pre-date the 1980s!

--Paul Curtis

 

The 1993 Mankowitz remaster does have the backward, floaty intro to YOU GOT ME FLOATIN', the P20P does not have the backward, floaty intro to YOU GOT ME FLOATIN'; the P33P does have the backward, floaty intro to YOU GOT ME FLOATIN', the 1997 Experience Hendrix does have the backward, floaty intro to YOU GOT ME FLOATIN'.

So out of the 4 CDs that I own, the only one that does not have the backward floaty intro to YOU GOT ME FLOATIN' is the P20P, the other ones all have the same mix.