Bad sounding inner grooves that aren't distorted. Advice?

I know inner grooves tend to sound pretty bad if the record is not correctly cut. But I thought most of this came in the form of IGD, inner groove distortion, where the inner grooves would be distorted or broken up and just crackly in general. I'm having a different issue. My inner grooves sound fine as far as distortion. They don't break up or mis-track. But they sound terrible on some records. An absolute loss of fidelity.

Is this to be expected, or, can they be made to sound better using more adjustments? I know proper alignment can get rid of the distortion, which I have done, but is there further tinkering that can be done to get them to sound better?

One thing I did try for about a week and decided that it made everything sound worse was the anti-skate mechanism for the VPI. While it was engaged, I got more distortion across the entire disc. With it off, everything sounds much smoother. Any other thoughts or suggestions are welcome. But if this is just something that happens, then I'll learn to live with it.

 

As you say, if your cartridge is well adjusted, anti-skate can make things worse. I also find that some previously owned records can show damage on the inside tracks that doesn't show up on other tracks. This is probably due to damage from the previous player.

 

Also something a bit counter intuitive, but I've found that it sounds better tracking LIGHTER, which is strange because VPI recommends 0.1 grams over the manufacturers highest spec, I had my cartridge tracking at 2.8 grams, now I've got it at 2.2 which is the lightest for this cartridge, and I'm getting better sound. Every other cartridge has been the other way around, the more downforce, the better. Just for the heck of it, I took it down to 1 gram, and it still tracked perfectly and sounded better. WTF?

 

I'd have to know the exact discs to comment specifically, but in general the physics of LP playback dictate that inner grooves will always sound worse. This can be mitigated to some degree by mastering, or by ending the grooves further away from the center, but when you have clean playback like you do you're going to notice LP limitations more readily.

 

Just to throw a wrench into this, it may also have to do with cleaning. (my latest obsession, i admit). Here's the deal: I recently got an RE-1 of After the Gold Rush that was basically fine, except for the last cut on side 1. It had what I call 'tracing distortion' (I don't know if that is even a term of art, but I use it to describe records where you hear a thin edge of distortion-like sibilance- at a certain bandwidth that makes it evident that it is tracking (or mistracking) the groove). I'm using a lateral tracking arm that is correctly set up, so my playback isn't the issue- in this case, it's the record. I cleaned it using AIVS No 15 soak/lab water rinse/wand-type vacuum. Didn't really improve. See my comments in the 'Best Practices Record Cleaning' thread at around post #90. I did an ultrasonic wash, and point nozzle (Monks) vacuum dry. Distortion gone. Go figure. Not saying that's the case for every record, but in some cases, I'm finding that getting the record clean this way makes a difference, and since you are talking inner grooves, where everybody always associates the problem with how the record is cut or how arms track the inside tracks near the label, I thought I'd share what I found.

 

I'm with you on the cleaning. I have the AIVS 3-step (actually 4, as I use the #15 pre-soak as well) and I clean everything before playing it. Unfortunately I don't have access to an ultrasonic cleaner, but it is definitely something I've thought about.

 

I think the cause of your fidelity loss is in the record mastering. It was a practice of some engineers, and some record labels to roll off the higher frequencies at the inner groove area. Additionally, the dynamic range often was limited progressively by adding more and more compression to the inner groove area, as the lacquer was being cut. The intent was to reduce inner groove distortion on the common mass produced record player, which is what the vast majority of consumers had to play their records on.

The most notorious for reduced inner groove distortion was RCA Dynagroove. What RCA labeled as technologically advanced, was simply the inverse analog of typical inner grove distortion that was intentionally superimposed on the lacquer. The purpose was to counter or cancel inner groove mistracking from the commonly used 0.7 conical stylus. (known as pinch effect distortion which is predictable) As these records are played back on high resolution playback equipment, the superimposed distortion pressed in the record is tracked accurately and heard as inner groove distortion. There would be also the intentional roll off of the higher frequencies.

The specific problem with your record appears to be inner groove high frequency rolloff during the mastering stage.

Groove wear from previous play can further reduce fidelity on these poorly mastered discs, which otherwise the wear would produce hard clipping distortion. The gently rounded groove shape resists physical clipping from wear, but background crackle or hissing may be present.

 

So, on remastered reissues that still bear the Dynagroove 'logo' (I think I have a couple of these, one may be a Nina Simone record), was the Dynagroove process necessarily followed, if it was in the mastering stage? I remember avoiding the original Dynagrooves like plague. Although Hans Fantel thought they were swell.

 

I think what you experience can still be considered as IGD, numanoid. Before you hear actual distortion, you'll already get that loss of fidelity you describe. It's the onset of IGD and has the same origin, impaired tracking/tracing of the shorter cut inner grooves. Keep in mind also that VTF will directly influence VTA/SRA, so you if you get better results with lower VTF (opening the VTA angle between cantilever and record as there's less compression of the cartridge suspension), maybe the VTA is a bit low at the nominal (higher) VTF. Just my thoughts

 

You know, I'm starting to think this is just an issue with all VPI turntables. Not trying to bash the brand at all, but you all know the problems I had with my VPI and distortion. Drove me crazy. Replaced the front end and now I have crystal clear clarity. All of the albums I complained about having too much IGD... no problems whatsoever now.

If you look at all of the posts on this forum about distortion and IGD in particular, 90% of them seem to be posted by VPI owners. A lot of time and energy is spent by others here giving advice on what to investigate. I think the simple answer is that VPI tables don't do anti-skating well. It seems like it takes a master to get these dialed in properly. Most of us aren't setup masters. Frustration begins and seems endless.

I liked the sound I was getting from my VPI when it sounded distortion free. But that didn't happen as much as I would like. Seems that's the elephant in the room that we keep ignoring.

 

Do you think it might be better to track at the heavier recommended force and adjust VTA to make that sound best?

You might be onto something here. These are finicky tables for sure... Most albums sound great, until they hit the last few inches of record. I can get rid of the crackle distortion, which drove me nuts! But now it's just a lack of fidelity on the inner grooves.

 

I have some Dynagrooves that sound spectacular, until you get to the last track. (sometimes the last two) I doubt the reissues suffer the same malady since the compression, and inverse pinch effect (IGD) were applied during the mastering stage for the vinyl record, and not applied to the master tape. The Dynagroove era masters are said to be superior to their Living Stereo predecessor.

 

Thanks for the reply. I bought a lot of RCAs back in the 80's and early 90's, mostly shaded dogs, but some white dogs too, as well as monos. Mostly avoided the Dynagrooves. These were virtually all classical music, although I have almost all the early Harry Belafonte, Chet Atkins and a number of other 'pop' music records from the early 60s. I have very few RCA remasters- the Classic Records Royal Ballet, which is pre-dynagroove, and the Cheskys, which were taken from a mix of RCA and the Reader's Digest versions, if memory serves. But, I do have the odd remaster- of which that Nina Simone is one, I think (I'll have to go upstairs and check). I should see if I have any of the old ones and a matching remaster on hand to compare them.

 

Only you can try to dial it in - with lots of listening . I think you posted a pic before already showing a comparatively wide VTA angle with this cartridge, but who knows - can't hurt to try. Personally, I'd stay below 2.8 grams though.

With reference to the VPI and from what I've seen here over the years, the JMW-9 arm may be happier with a higher compliance cartridge than the Ortofon MC, due to a lack of damping in the unipivot design. The resulting high LF resonance amplitude of this combination can't help tracking.

 

For awhile I thought it was the cartridge. Now I'm convinced it's just that the VTA/VTF combo must be dead on. And that's tough to do because of how the replicant tip has to spot on as well, I think I'm just fighting a losing battle.

VPI suggested upgrading to a classic...

 

I can't buy that this is a "VPI thing" though I don't disagree that they can be finicky tables.. I don't have this issue with my HW19MkIII and Dynavector 20X2L, ever since moving to a Microline stylus. I understand that the replicant stylus is particularly sensitive to VTA as you mention so maybe it just isn't dialed in quite right? Numanoid, it would interesting if you could name some titles that you experience this fidelity loss on (ideally new or mint vinyl) so that others could compare.

 

I've been using the same few albums to try to dial it in, which is why I thought it might be a pressing issue. Here's what I've been using:

T.Rex - Futuristic Dragon (the inner grooves sound bad, hard to describe, but they lack the clarity that the digital version has for sure)
Siouxsie and the Banshees (all US pressings, especially Cities in Dust on Tinderbox just sounds super sibilant and strident, but all of my Siouxsie seems to suffer from bad sibilance. Would UK be better?)
Smiths - Queen Is Dead (US promo on Quiex II, sounds good until Cemetry Gates, then it's super sibilant)
The Saints - I'm Stranded Australian Pressing (Erotic Neurotic, the inner groove has never sounded good. Now I got the distortion out, but it sounds dull with no separation between instruments and vocals. This is definitely not an audiophile recording, but the digital versions sound brighter and more pleasant for sure)

These are all used but NM, except for T.Rex which is a very strong VG+. Oddly enough I haven't tried a whole lot of new records, I've been trying to focus on problematic older ones.

As a side note, I think I may have had the VTA too high. I set it parallel as a starting point from the bottom of the arm tube. Since it's tapered, I thought maybe the top should be parallel instead, so I dropped the VTA to make that happen. It helps bring out some bass, but not much with the sibliance or mediocre sounding inner grooves.

 

Adjustment of the VTA is more of a fine tune. The problem you're having with sibilance isn't resolvable by tweaking the alignment, anti-skate, VTA, etc, but can be reduced greatly by adjustment of the VTF. Sometimes even that doesn't help much. The causes of sibilance can be one or more factors, usually one major contributor. Some records have it from oversaturation of the cutting head, or driving amplifiers, sometimes the master source itself.

Aside from possible record defects, sibilance from on the reproducing end is always manifest from a difference signal (distortion) induced by the stylus which is not recorded in the groove. The most common occurrence of this difference distortion is the pinch effect of the stylus as it is physically forced upward in a highly modulated groove. Pinch effect is a fact of life with a conical, and some elliptical styli of .03 x .07 mil or larger. The stylus will pinch regardless whether it remains in contact on the groove wall or not. If the stylus remains in contact, the distortion will less severe, maybe just a hint of sibilance. If the stylus loses contact, the result will me more audible, a more obvious "shh" sound. The "shhh" sound consists of almost entirely difference, out of phase "signal".

The most offending frequencies range from 2K to about 6K. It should be no surprise this is the frequency range is most affected by wear in the grove. This frequency range is the most difficult to track. The groove is more radically cut, sharper angular ramps, and tightly packed, so the stylus encounters greater acceleration forces. The higher frequency range isn't as challenging since the modulation is less, so the physical amplitude of the groove easier to track, the acceleration forces less. (frequency and amplitude factor into acceleration of the stylus.. the greater the acceleration, the more difficult to track)

All of that said, it is important to make sure the TT is set up correctly, cartridge aligned, the cantilever checked for any off-center or lean. The VTA is les critical except for Line contact styli. The antiskate is less critical. (does make a difference, however I can dial in more or less while a record plays with no major change in the reproduced sound) The anti-skate serves the greater function of keeping the cantilever in line, so that there is no off-center from the skating force (only induced by an offset headshell, linear tracking does not require anti-skate)

The cause of sibilance is always mistracking (on the reproduce side of the causes)

Suggestions:
try the heavier tracking force as before, but compensate by dialing more VTA.
check for azimuth errors, only visible error, perhaps 3 degrees or more would cause a major sibilance problem.
make sure the records/ poor mastering are not the cause
also check the TT arm bearings, platter bearings for any play
The stylus may defective, the radii not ground correctly

I apologize for not re-reading your op, do you have a line contact stylus, or elliptical?
I hope these suggestions help alleviate frustration rather than add to them,
Steve VK

Also, sibilance only at the inner groove is almost always pinch effect
Overall sibilance not in the inner groove area is not caused by pinch effect, which means the cartridge has a major mistraking problem, tweaking to correct will only lead to major frustration.

 

Ah. You really have no idea of the condition of used records. All it takes is one play with a badly setup cartridge and even an NM looking LP can have damaged inner grooves. No tweaking will change this. You should be focusing on brand new LPs. If you have no problems playing these then your setup is fine. If you then have issues with used LPs then I have to say it is the LP, not your setup.

John K.

 

Great post, Fringe.
thegage- I agree, with used records there are too many variables. Even new records can have this sort of distortion, not limited to the inner grooves. It can be un-nerving, making you question your set-up, until one verifies that it is the record itself.

 

Alright, I spent most of the week tweaking. This is what I came up with. I think it sounds terrible. Records, or my turntable? I've kinda had enough and I'm ready to ditch the VPI and Cadenza Bronze for something more simple. I was listening to some needledrops I did a few years back with my much more modest Pro-Ject RM-5 with an Ortofon Rondo Red and Pro-Ject Tube Box SE II. That equipment was about a 1/5 of what my current set up costs and it seems like I got better results. Opinions please.

Iggy Pop - Endless Sea - https://www.sendspace.com/file/dtwk19
Smiths - Cemetry Gates - https://www.sendspace.com/file/5rrz07

Smiths is a US promo pressing on Quiex II vinyl. Iggy Pop is just a plain old US Arista pressing.

Thanks in advance.

 

I've had this type of distortion in the left channel with my VDH when the azimuth is too far clockwise. The replicant stylus is probably even more sensitive to azimuth than the VDH 1 is.

 

The strong bass lines on these make the sibilants etc. extra hard to track.

If you don't apply subsonic filtering, what level (-dB) is the 9Hz resonance amplitude at?

 

Good question. I've always filtered at around 20hz. I'll turn off the filters and see what happens.

 

If it peaks relatively high, like -30dB or higher, it's like woofer pumping at stylus level. You're trying to produce a clean music signal on top of it and it becomes difficult to impossible to track/trace smoothly. If the replicant tip is very sensitive to azimuth like Dale indicated, that can make it extra tricky on the unipivot (which isn't fixed in the azimuth plane). Not sure whether there's a good solution for you, would need more input from JMW-9 users.