Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by ShardEnder, May 21, 2014.

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  1. hurple

    hurple Forum Resident

    Location:
    Clinton, IL, USA

    Well, let's start with the fact that BvS was directed by a filmmaker who is *on record* saying he hates both Superman and Batman.
     
  2. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    Can you provide said quotes?
     
  3. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    Can you provide said quotes in context?
     
  4. alexpop

    alexpop Power pop + other bad habits....

    5/10 rating, or more ?
     
  5. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    I'd say the extended version is a solid 7/10 if your issues with the theatrical cut were mostly related to plot and narrative structure. The extended cut fixes most of those issues. Not all but most. If your issues with it were related to thematic things or tone, then it doesn't change much,except Superman comes off far more sympathetic and Noble,and the climax is more emotionally rewarding. It really is subjective. I personally really liked the extended cut.
     
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  6. alexpop

    alexpop Power pop + other bad habits....

    7/10 is watchable / keepable imo.
     
  7. hurple

    hurple Forum Resident

    Location:
    Clinton, IL, USA
    he forgot the "-' in front of the 7. It's actually -7/10

    It's an absolute pile of garbage that pisses on everything that those characters are, and stand for, and everything that has kept them relevant for the past 80 years. From the opening frame to the end it showers their history and everything that made them great with complete and utter disdain.

    Plus, the movie has the internal consistency of Plan 9 From Outer Space, and not even that good a plot.

    Batman, "The world's greatest detective," would have to be a complete and utter ***** to fall for Luthor's scheme.

    Ma Kent saying, "You don't owe them anything," is anathema to everything that character has ever been.

    Superman is an ineffectual fop who is manipulated easier than Charlie Brown by Lucy. In fact, Charlie Brown is a good analogy for this goober of a "Superman".

    Wonder Woman was, literally, the *only* thing this movie got right. And that's probably only because she's lucky enough to only be in it for about 5 minutes.

    And... again... straight from Snyder:

    I had a buddy who tried getting me into “normal” comic books, but I was all like, “No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me.” ... So when Watchmen came along, I was, “This is more my scene.”

    ...

    Everyone says that about [Christopher Nolan’s] Batman Begins. “Batman’s dark.” I’m like, okay ... But he doesn’t, like, get raped in prison. That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that’s how that would go.
    I agree with Gerry Conway:

    F*** y**, Zack Snyder.

    ...

    The real mystery is why Warners gave him their whole superhero franchise
    This is ***BY FAR*** the single most wrong-headed, abysmal, pathetic use of these properties... ***EVER***. ANd it makes me angry that a generation of people are going to see this pile of dog-*** and think this is what these characters are.

    Worst. Superhero. Movie. Ever.

    By a W I D E margin.
     
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  8. keefer1970

    keefer1970 Metal, Movies, Beer!

    Location:
    New Jersey
    ^^ Dang dude, tell us how you really feel. :D

    I wanna see BvS but haven't yet, cuz I'm waitin' for it to turn up for rental at RedBox... whenever I do get around to it, believe me, I'm going to be keeping my expectations low.
     
  9. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    Nope. Sorry. It's 7 out of 10. I know what I typed.

    And I've been a fan of Superman and Batman for nearly 30 years and up until about 5 years ago I was collecting and reading comics on a regular basis. So, don't speak for me,friend. Speak for yourself.

    You don't like it? Fine. But don't pretend your opinion is fact. It's not. It's a valid opinion,but just an opinion that is rooted in your own personal tastes,which are subjective. As are mine.

    Oh and as for those quotes...you take them way out of context,and both were from at least a decade ago,way before he even was working on these movies.

    I want exact quotes in context where Zack Snyder says he hates Superman and Batman . Can you find where he's said that? If so, just post the link. shouldn't be difficult.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  10. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    You're being much too kind! :)

    I think the two biggest problems with the movie boil down to, "whyyyy soooooo seeeeerious?" and lacking a sense of fun.

    I do look forward to seeing the Blu-ray and checking if the longer version is just more crap, or if they cut the good parts back in.
     
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  11. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    Truth is, if you didn't like the tone, well, the extended cut doesn't really make it a happy sunny movie, so if you didn't like it because it didn't have enough jokes or Marvel-esque humor, then you still are gonna not like it. I had no issue with the tone, so your millage may vary. Again, it's all subjective.

    From a plotting/editing standpoint,It does flow better and gives Cavill notably far more to do as Clark Kent. For instance, in the theatrical cut, Superman just sees a tv report about Batman branding crooks and BAM! suddenly he makes it his mission to take down the Bat, which was one of the things that really bugged me in the Theatrical cut. In the extended cut,there's a whole subplot of Clark investigating the woman from the African village whom testified near the start of the film. That investigation takes him to Gotham City and it is there he starts on the thread about Batman's supposedly more brutal tactics. Even then, it's not a light switch moment. The Superman side of things is built more logically and you can see why at a certain point, Superman has it in for Batman.

    There are literal whole subplots that were dropped, especially from the Superman/Lois/Luthor side of the equation, that connects a lot of unconnected dots. Most of the material is in the first two thirds. The last act is largely unchanged, aside from some little tidbits near the end that are more "inside baseball" stuff and referrences for the nerds.
     
  12. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Senior Member

    My understanding is that the full version is Snyder's completed film, and the theatrical version was edited for unknown (but probably easily guessed) reasons. Does that seem to be the case?
     
  13. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    That's my understanding too. Apparently the theatrical version was an eleventh hour edit when the studio freaked out that a 3 hour run time may hurt the opening weekend grosses as a longer film means less times a day you can run it.

    Which baffles me, as THE DARK KNIGHT RISES was 2 hours and 45 minutes long, and that movie did ok. Surely they could have went ahead with the 3 hour version or even compromised and added back 15 minutes to repair the holes in the narrative. They could have easily cut down on the Nightmare sequence with Batman and the awkward JLA cameos, added back all the Clark Kent plot stuff they cut and still come in under 2 hrs 45 minutes.
     
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  14. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Snyder himself made the cuts after getting voluminous notes from the WB execs. Snyder does not have the cache of Chris Nolan in making a 3-hour theatrical film, especially one that went $20 million over budget. I think the critics are right on this one, and Snyder made bad creative choices in creating a very dreary, weird, sad kind of Superman film. Note there were 14 producers on Snyder's film, including Snyder himself.

    I'll be very curious to see how Suicide Squad does. By god, at least it looks like it has a sense of humor and some attitude:

     
  15. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Why does a comic book movie have to have a sense of humor? Is it a prerequisite? Sorry, but I don't really want that in this kind movie. The Nolan stuff didn't have much of a "sense of humor" and I liked those movies just fine. Just because the source is a comic book doesn't mean it has to be inherently goofy or glib like the Marvel stuff. At some point, that becomes tiresome and you get weary of looking over at the person next to you and forcing a laugh to show you're "in" on things.

    I'm not much of a comic fan and certainly never liked much DC stuff, but I liked this. Was it over blown in places? Yes. Confusing in some others? Yes, but I liked the overall tone of the movie and, better yet, found it pretty entertaining.
     
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  16. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    There's more laughs in the Nolan movies, and they're also much better films overall. And they got better reviews and they made a lot more money.

    It's not just about laughs per se -- it's about not taking yourself so deadly seriously to the point where it drags everything down, like a dreary fog descends on the story and the characters. Ultimately, it's a couple of guys in capes punching people, so the situation is inherently silly no matter how much they try to disguise it. I think the Marvel movies walk the line between being serious, being funny, and being flippant, but at the same time, death is death in the Marvel movies, and bad things can and do happen there. Just not as badly as in Snyder's films. Having really, really sharp dialogue helps a lot.
     
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  17. Quadboy

    Quadboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Leeds,England
    On the humourous/lighter side of the film.......it was Lex that was under used.
    He's always been the comical [but menacing] character of Superman stories.
     
  18. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    In the film series under Hackman and Spacey perhaps,but comic book Lex Luthor traditionally isn't a comical character. Especially the evil businessman version both Michael Rosenbaum's version from Small ville and Jessie Rosenberg's Lex from this movie is based on.
     
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  19. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Ok, I really can't argue with this line of reasoning at all.

    Still, I liked the tone and story of the movie. Probably my least favorite aspect was Eisenberg as Luthor. He was annoying to me (but I don't like Jesse Eisenberg as a rule in anything).
     
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  20. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    Having seen both versions of BvS, I will say that it has major problems. It's not *horrible*, and some things are promising (Affleck's portrayal for one). But for all its problems, I don't think one of the problems is that it lacks humor. I really don't need Chris Pratt/Robert Downey Jr. style quips or ironic references or jokes.

    Nolan's Batman films don't have a ton of humor (I suppose there are little funny bits, like when Morgan Freeman confronts the guy for his ill-advised plan to blackmail Bruce Wayne, but even those aren't really laugh-out-loud funny bits), and I wouldn't call them swashbuckling fun rides. They're appropriately dark and dour. So that sort of thing can be done without any sort of Marvel-style humor/fun.
     
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  21. Quadboy

    Quadboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Leeds,England
    Yes Rosenbaum's Lex was exceptional.
    I'm still waiting for the movie version of the TV show.
     
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  22. Quadboy

    Quadboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Leeds,England
    I wouldn't call it a light hearted scene (very irrelevant as Batman is supposedly extremely educated/intelligent) but why would he be working out Rocky Balboa style in the Bat cave for the showdown knowing full well he can't go toe to toe in the muscle/strenght stakes with him.
    He out thought Superman by creating the Kryptonite tear gas canisters knowing 'that' was the only way to beat him.
     
  23. Matthew

    Matthew Senior Member

    Good point, but probably so he could wear that heavy suit... perhaps. And get "back in shape", since the character had supposedly gone off the rails a bit.
     
  24. jhm

    jhm Forum Resident

    Totally agree. There's a reason why the first Avengers film did so well. IMO Joss Whedon really knows how to walk that line between funny and serious and writes some great dialogue to boot. Firefly is like a master class in this stuff!
     
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  25. Dr. Pepper

    Dr. Pepper What, me worry?

    Yes, it's alright to go with a darker story, but the trick is there has to be a story at it's core. Humor is not a bad thing, in fact people like it and it helps us to care about the characters. Part of what makes the film Dark Knight such a good story, fun film, and the Joker portrayal so beloved is the above quoted "whyyyy soooooo seeeeerious?" and the pencil trick as well. The humorous valleys help us enjoy the dramatic peaks, peaks with no valleys is boring. BVS obviously pays homage or steals from Frank Miller's masterpeice The Dark Knight Returns, depending on your point of view, but it does a very bad job of it's theft. They would have been far better off to steal some of the humorous parts of Frank's story. The Batman/Alfred exchanges in the book are laugh out loud funny, as are the Batman/Robin dialog exchanges. And how can a bad guy/gal character not be funny that has swastikas on their butt cheeks, with holes in the bottom of their pants to show them off! The news coverage is funny in Dark Knight Returns, the dialog from the majority of characters is funny in Dark Knight Returns, the geriatric President is funny, it's probably one of the funnier comics I've ever read, but yes it's very dark as well - that's why it works! Anyway, you get the point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
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