Battle of the Divas: Beyonce vs. Rihanna

Again you are putting so much other values into it besides the music. I have always been a Guitar Rock guy at heart, still am, and I always mainly liked music older than myself pretty much. So at the time when D.C. came along I just hated anything that was on the charts, thought it was all crap that sounded the same. But when I heard their early hits there was something about those songs that sounded fresh and different and that spoke to me and I liked it (because one can like old and new music, which might be news to many on this forum). All this other stuff means nothing to me, like the "definition of girl groups" (though I love all the girl groups of the 60s), as far as appreciating the music. It can be very interesting in other ways though, if you're a historian and study Pop culture (which I do in my own amateure way, but that is separated from liking or not liking the sounds I hear).

 

Explain??

 

That's a sad attempt at shade.

Regardless, my points are still valid. The Spice Girls had far more creative control over their music. They actually put pencil to paper and came up with concepts, ideas, and lyrics. Destiny's Child was a vehicle designed to make Beyonce a star. The fact that Kelly had some success after she left Matthew was a side-effect nobody expected. DC isn't that far off from the Pussycat Dolls.

It was just a rotation of different, nameless girls who stood in the background while Beyonce got all the spotlight. It's the opposite of girl power.

 

If anybody is interesting on some serious commentary about the Spice Girls and their impact on the pop paradigm, give this book a read when it comes out:

 

Alicia Keys gets my vote. Is she a Diva?

 

I like both of them, but I have to go with Beyoncé. She has less duds in her singles discography.

 

Beyonce, for me.

 

I always think of the Spice Girls as the triumph of Ambition & Marketing over actual talent.

 

A good argument for reading the book. A friend of mine wrote it. He really should be on this forum. He's got as much piss and vinegar in us as we do. Or rather, the Zep and Zappa dude do. Ours is white wine and glitter, I suppose.

 

But on Survivor all the girls sang lead. They even were known by name to the GP, the PCD was always just Nicole and the girls.

 

Ah yes...the "Presidential Debate" episode. Both candidates are still living up
to their 'animated avatars' even today.

 

All their faux feminism BS, the Spice Girls were all about making the deal. They would have endorsed chemical weapons if the price was right.

 

But that was by the end. How many incarnations of Destiny's Child did they have to go through until they found girls who would play ball and let Beyonce take all the glory in the public eye?

 

I'm being honest though. It's not even my fault. I missed their era, Im younger than you think I am.

 

Kelly sang lead on some songs on TWOTW too. And by the time we got to DF all of them were singing. Even in live performances Kelly or Michelle would stand in the middle. Ofcourse by then Beyonce was a solo star but I don't think it's a coincidence that Kelly has carved out a pretty good career for herself.

 

That's the start of a set of lyrics right there, that is.

 

Although Rihanna has some very good singles, I think Beyoncé is more consistent in her music. And I like the sound of her voice better.

I really liked many of Beyoncé's singles, but to my surprise I was really blown away by her BEYONCE album. And still am.

 

Kelly had to claw her way out from under Matthew's fist for her success. I really do recommend reading up on the shady stuff that happened behind that band. I won't say those girls aren't talented. And they had some great songs handed to them (Bills, Jumpin', Bug-A-Boo, Lose My Breath). But there's no art or creativity there. That's what I mean about DC being the antithesis of the SGs, who had a pretty firm grip on their careers and material.

 

Actually, you're right. It sounds like something Lorde would sing. Who's got a drum machine...

 

On Youtube and these two videos were side by side. Weird coincidence?

 

To me great songs are art and making them is creative. Are you in that camp that thinks no artist is valid unless they write their own songs?

You say D.C. undid all the work Spice Girls had done to change the "definition of girl groups" from what it was when groups like The Supremes were around, I don't know if that is so or not, but fair enough. So Spice Girls are good "role models" or something, and D.C. and Supremes are flawed, that's fine. But if I say that when I hear The Supremes or Destiny's Child I'm lovin' it, and when I hear Spice Girls my only thought is "please turn that **** off!", that is another way to look at it.

 

No, no. Allow me to expand.

The Spice Girls took the definition of a girl group and moved it beyond from where it was. Under a man's thumb. Although they started out that way, they broke away from their management before anybody even knew who they were and made themselves a major success. I give them a lot of credit for that.

In regards to your other question about whether or not I think only songwriters have artistic merit, the short answer is no. However, in order to be a true artist with your voice, you need to have something special that sets it apart from the billions of other people waiting in line to sing that same song. The songwriters behind DC's hits may be talented, but everything about the assembly of their albums was about popularity and money. One could easily argue that most albums today are like that, and I wouldn't disagree with you. Destiny's Child wasn't interested in making good artistry, having clear direction, or telling a narrative. They wanted to run around on stage in sparkly costumes and sing pretty songs. And if that's all you are, that's fine. I'd gladly have a best of DC in my CD collection. But I won't sit here and say they have any artistic merit. If you want vocalists who could paint with their voices, look at Tina Turner or Frank Sinatra. Or even Meatloaf. Or any memorable Broadway or opera singer.

Destiny's Child is just another girl group in a sea of millions that brought absolutely nothing new to the formula.

 

What's all this Spice Girls talk about? This one's "Beyoncé vs. Rihanna" and Rihanna wins hands down in all departments: Better voice, better singing, looks hotter, smokes more (and better) weed.

 

Yes, I understand all this, and if it so then that's a good thing of course. But I am not talking about that, I am talking about the music. Let's say we have a staff of writers and producers making music for a girl group run by a ruthless manager, the girls a miserable their whole career and hate their existense - that's awful. But what if this setup also produces music that I happen to really like? Am I supposed to not enjoy the music because I may or may not know this is how it came about? Charles Manson wrote a song that the Beach Boys adapted as "Never Learn Not To Love", and I love the song. If I was to think about it's background and weigh that in it'd be really hard to listen to it, but I don't.

I can admit that my favourite artists also often have written their own material. But to me if a song is good and the performer is good, how the two are combined doesn't really matter. Motown is an example, when I listen to those songs I don't think much about which artist I am listening to. I also listen to an enormous amount of Reggae, a genre where singers really did physically wait in line to get picked for sessions, and who ended up doing a song was very arbitrary, in Reagge there are almost no singer with a "clear direction", it was all about the sound of the day, right across a whole genre, or even a whole nation's music. Still lots of art and creativity invloved. There is no one correct way to make music.

It is possible that D.C. was primarily "about popularity and money", but the earliest hits they had sounded groundbreaking, at least to me, I'm sure there was similar stuff I'm not aware of, but like I said, to me it sounded fresh and interesting, so if, while aiming for the charts, the songwriters and producers also tried some new things to get there then something good still came out of it.

About the "pretty songs", that is really what I come to Rihanna and Beyoncé for, light entertainmenet, I'll admit that, I listen to enough heavy, arty and complex music otherwise, so to tell you the truth that is what I want out of it, and there is nothing wrong with that. Like I said, everything doesn't have to be grand art all the time.

But you really lost me when you brought Meatloaf into this, that is one of the most awful singers I know as far as voices go, and I have never heard such overdramatized delivery, so I think we come from very different places...