Beatles 1st U.S. performances in the wrong key???

Rather than belabor the point in the other thread about the new live Beatles documentary, I wanted to delve a little further into this business of the Beatles' first U.S. performances actually coming out a half-step lower in key than the recorded versions.

This was first pointed out by Helmut in the other thread concerning the 2-11-64 Washington D.C. Coliseum clip of "She Loves You", but I've also gone back and listened again to the Sullivan performances filmed on February 9th and found this to be true of them as well. That includes not only the storied "1st appearance" evening performance that was shown live on that date, but also the performance that was taped earlier that day in the afternoon for broadcast later on Feb. 23. Note however that it is not true of the 2nd Sullivan appearance filmed on Feb. 16 in Miami Beach, which sounds in the correct recorded key.

So what's going on here? Both the Feb. 9 Sullivan and Feb. 11 Washington D.C. shows seem to be played at or close to their normal live tempo, but nevertheless are a half-key too low in pitch. Did the Beatles intentionally tune a half-step low for some reason? Or is some anamoly in the video artifacts responsible (if that's the case, you'd think it would apply to the Feb. 16 performances as well).

Thoughts anyone?

 

Wow - did I finally come up with the one Beatles-related topic no one on this board is interested in enough to respond to? Yeah for me! (lol)

Anyways, I've done a bit of messing around with the audio since the original post, and with both the 1st Sullivan or Washington D.C. recordings, it doesn't really sound natural if you pitch correct to the recorded keys. So I can only assume John, Paul and George intentionally tuned down a half-step for these performances for whatever reason (self-preservation perhaps?). But if anyone has any other ideas, I'm all ears...

 

I think the kinescopes weren't transferred at the correct speed. When they aired they were shown at the correct speed.

 

Am or F.

 

Just went back and watched the "Making Of" portion of the Maysles 1st U.S. Visit documentary, which shows a family watching the Sullivan show live as it aired, and sure enough, the audio on "I Saw Her Standing There" is playing in the correct key of E major (and a bit faster than we're used to as well, as you would expect).

So it appears we have indeed been listening to the 1st and 3rd Sullivan's and the D.C. Show at the wrong speeds all this time due to the transfer error. Wonderful.

 

I'm convinced they tuned down half a step. They sound natural at this pitch, they don't if you speed them up to concert pitch. Maybe they did it to help George who had a cold/throat problem at that time, making it easier to sing.

 

Agree, not a transfer problem they were tuned half step down. It sounds natural. If I'm not mistaken they were tuned half step down on the japanese 1966 shows as well.

Ondra

 

Weren't the 1st and 3rd Sullivan appearances taped at the same time? That would explain why both are in the same tuning.

 

I've always assumed that they just tuned to each other and whoever's guitar was chosen just happened to be a semitone out - No electronic tuner in those days and I very much doubt they could be bothered with tuning forks. Remember they were all untrain musicians and none of them had perfect pitch so how would they know! - In the studio George Martin would have made sure they tuned to concert pitch.

There is nothing wrong with the Ed Sullivan transfers. They are from VT - Playing video tape at a slower speed would lead to all sorts of problems! As for the First US Visit footage, wouldn't this have to be shot at a slightly different speed due to TV sync issues? This would explain the difference there.

 

Did Maysles shot the tv screen at 24 fps or 25fps?

 

Has anyone looked in the washbasin?

 

Hendrix used to tune down to Eb and Poco did as well. It's not a big deal.

 

The Conn Stroboconn tuner was invented in 1936. Maybe someone who knows more about the Beatles live setup could chime in and let us know if a tuner was used. I would guess the Sullivan show would have one available as they had a live studio band.

 

You have basically summarized that the Beatles were musical dimwits who couldn't even tell if their own instruments were in tune.

I'm not sure I would go with that theory.

 

Not having perfect pitch does not make you a musical dimwit, and the ability to tune a guitar is really the ability to bring the strings in tune with each other and with the other instruments in a group. Relative pitch is all people need to be brilliant musicians.

Now Roger Waters reportedly didn't even have that and had to have others tune his bass. If true, the description could well fit him.

 

Without a tuner, I'm sure most guitarists wouldn't know if they were in exact concert pitch. They would know if the instrument was in tune with itself however, that's the easy part.

 

I've heard before that they tuned a step down to make it easier to sing the songs. They go pretty high on the actual recordings.

 

I'd like to submit my thread from 2003:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-beatles-on-the-ed-sullivan-show-question.14914/

 

The further I look into this and play around with the audio, the more I'm inclined to believe it is indeed a speed issue involved in the transfers of the 2/9 Sullivan performances (which includes the 2/23 taped broadcast) and the 2/11 Washington D.C. show. As our host noted in the thread just referenced above, there's no reason the Beatles would have detuned their guitars, and indeed, they never did this for any other live shows at least up until Budokan (which may have not been intentional).

As for the absolute concert pitch versus relative pitch issue, if I can easily tell when my own guitar is detuned to that degree, I'm sure that professional musicians of the Beatles' calibre would hear it as well.

The reason I think some say it sounds natural as is is because our ears are acclimated to that after all this time. When pitch correcting again, to me it actually does sound more natural in the right key at the faster speed. Though it's a bit tougher proposition how much to do this with the D.C. show because I think their guitars are out of tune to a degree anyways.

 

I think there's a way to check this. The kinescopes for these performances still exist and they would have been recorded at the time, less subject to any transfer issues. Has anybody done this comparison?

Derek

 

I don't think they tuned down live. Though the recording of "Yesterday" was tuned down, so the G chord formation resulted in an F, it was played in G on the live versions I've heard. McCartney was a little strained on the higher notes as a result.

 

Thank you that's exactly what I meant. It's easy to tune a guitar to it's self - I do it all the time If i don't have a tuner handy! Unless you have perfect pitch (which is rare) you can't tell without a reference note. Once one Guitar is tuned you then tune the others to it. It's not calling anyone a dimwit it's just saying they didn't use a concert tuned instrument to start with. In fact it's harder to tune a guitar to it's self than using a tuner, making someone who does it even less of a dimwit!

This in theory could even happen to an orchestra. Traditionally an orchestra tunes to a concert "A" played by an oboe. If, (in theory, as it's unlikely to happen in practice) the oboe was flat then the whole orchestra would tune flat.

As for the "I can tell if my instrument is not at concert pitch" argument, some people can, some people can't. I've know professional musicians who are brilliant but have no clue when it comes to knowing if their instrument is in concert pitch without a tuner. Conversely I've found virtual non musicians who can pluck a note put of thin air and be EXACTLY right.

I personally don't see a transfer problem. B&W NTSC video tape - such as the Sullivan performances would be exactly 30fps play that a semitone down and it would roughly be something like 27.5 fps - I would think this would play havoc with any transfers done at that speed. I'm not a video expert but surely that would cause major picture roll wouldn't it?

 

For anyone who still believes the 1st and 3rd Sullivans are playing at the right speed, I highly suggest again that you check out the extras in the re-issue of the Maysles "1st U.S. Visit" documentary. Once again, there's a segment where they're filming a family listening to the Beatles performing "I Saw Her Standing There" live on the 1st Sullivan appearance. This is essentially equivalent to a kinescope (if I understand the meaning of the term correctly), as it includes shots of the TV screen as they're watching. The audio is clearly in the correct key of E major, and not the half-step down version that we have on the later Sullivan DVDs. And it sounds right as well.

This is especially interesting because they incorporated a little of this same footage in Episode 3 of the "Beatles Anthology" documentary, but in doing so pulled off a little "sleight of hand". That is, they segued to it while the Beatles were instead performing "All My Loving" during the same appearance (in the wrong slowed down key), and in doing so intentionally "dumbed down" the audio so it would match when they segued. But you'll notice they showed very little of the TV screen, so the viewer wouldn't know it was actually a different song the Beatles were performing while the footage was shot.

Again, I see no reason why the Beatles would be tuned down a half-step for these two appearances when they're pretty much in correct concert pitch for all the rest of their surviving live performances.

 

It did seem that for their first Sullivan appearance, the Fab Four appeared to use older A=422 tuning than the regular A=440. But then, the kinescope of that landmark show was recorded at U.S. 24 fps, so when played at U.K. 25 fps, the lads would have appeared to be singing in the proper key.

 

The Beatles used a mouth organ to tune to. They always played in correct pitch. Any anomalies are due to vintage video/film issues.