Beatles 1st U.S. performances in the wrong key???

I'm pretty much willing to concede the group was tuned flat both for the initial 2/9-filmed Sullivan gigs and the Washington D.C. concert two days later at this point per the surviving video records. But I would lean much more towards the "by design" argument due to the "jet lag/playing it safe/George's health" issues rather than it being an accident. It's just too much of a coincidence that by the following week in Miami - perhaps after a little R&R and improvement in George's health - they were already back in A=440 for the 2nd Sullivan appearance.

Regarding pitch-shifting, I know I've waffled a little back and forth on this in this thread, but it's true that in this case you can't shift these performances all the way up to A=440 without it sounding a bit unnatural - tempo-wise as much as the actual sound (nor can you do this with the "black suits" Budokan gig). I do think if you do something a little more subtle - say in the 20-25 cents range (about 1/4 of a semitone) it does seem to energize the performances a bit without the listener being unduly aware of it. But I would abhor this practice if the audio was already in A=440 to begin with.

By way of contrast, the circulating audio of the 1964 Blackpool Night Out show (where they performed "Hard Day's Night", "Things We Said Today", "You Can't Do That", "If I Fell" and "Long Tall Sally") is obviously incorrect by a whole semi-tone, and sounds perfectly natural when you pitch shift it completely up into the correct recorded key.

 

All the screaming resonated the strings a bit flat.

 

Kinescope recordings have been mentioned several times in the thread, but I don't believe any Kinescopes were ever used for any version of the Sullivan performances you've seen (if any were even made, which I doubt). The performances were recorded directly to 2" videotape, and/or replayed from 2" videotape to another 2" videotape, and all bootlegs and official releases originate with those video recordings. Unless modern digital effects are applied, there's no way to alter the pitch during video transfers. The magnetic track on the original 2" tape is a very, very accurate and stable recording of the Beatles' performances. The Washington show was only available as a Kinescope for years, but that too is 2" VT based, so the video version released in the last couple of years would also be very, very accurate. The Plangent Processes guys are digitally fixing wow and flutter inherent in the magnetic tape due to mechanical/electrical variations in the recording equipment, but nothing that would manifest itself as a speed/pitch change.

 

Let's not forget John got a new Rickenbacker in Miami. Not saying the difference in tuning was due to any aspects of the old guitar, just that adding a new instrument to the mix brings up the question of tuning fresh.

 

Are there any other performances from around this time out there? Tv, radio, newsreel, etc?

 

That makes sense.

 

I actually saw the Feb. 9, 1964 Beatles performance on the Sullivan show via kine' transfer way back in 1977 at what was then the Museum of Broadcasting (later the Museum of Television & Radio, now the Paley Center for Media). The end had the big CBS eye with the "The Preceding Program Was Pre-Recorded" notice that was typical on CBS kine's. They would have been made for CBS affiliates that would not have been equipped for live transmission (i.e. much smaller markets). It was also many years before MB / MT&R / Paley got a VT copy of the same program (as, many years later, passing the building, they showed a snippet of the Fab Four on Sullivan via VT). It would also definitely have been shown via kine', for example, on AFRTS (Armed Forces Radio & Television Service) outlets around the world.

 

Incorrect, I know at least two Kinescopes survived. One is the February 9th, 1964 broadcast, and the other is the August 23rd rebroadcast of their February 23rd appearance. The latter has a new Sullivan intro added to it with Ed mentioning their US tour which started on August 19th.

Derek

 

I stand corrected.... another poster mentioned copies for delayed viewing and circulation as well. I keep forgetting that film was a lot more portable, especially abroad so that video standards weren't an issue. My point was that the quads/video dubs would have been the origin of what most people have seen, so transfer problems from film are unlikely.

 

Hi - Jamie from Plangent here.
I think there is a slight pitch drop in these transfers since at the time I believe (somebody correct me) that the video sync reference would have been 30fps which means a 15750 artifact would be on the tape... but it was played on a current day quad playback machine referenced to 15734 for today's drop frame 29.97fps SMPTE. This is a tenth of a percent flat which would put an A440 performance at A435.6 which would throw the pitch off enough to feel low to a trained musical ear. This is not the semitone you guys are talking about but it is flat.
When I inspected this DVD I found sync that was clearly crosstalk into the original recorder's audio, but it appeared in the FFT at 15734. What's more remarkable is the damage to the timbre of the guitars and the cymbals due to the flutter --- there's a lot of it... I would love to get a shot at tracking these quads for actual bias, since the helical scanner is a terrible provoker of both 30 and 120 Hz flutter, but also scrape flutter and bearing flutter and the trace of sync tone wasn't sufficient to really solve all of that.

Just for giggles I could easily pull it up to 15750 and all could listen and see with you think. I also will check All My Loving from 2/9 which had enough sync to dewow - but was not posted to our website.

 

So very cool to have your expertise chime in. I can't wait to hear the Springsteen work btw! Thanks again

 

How is this pitch issue possible with all the other material in the broadcast being in the correct keys?? I posted my analysis further back in the thread.

 

We don't know whether the complete shows are coming from the same recording tape or whether they were reconstructed from various sources.
It may well be, that the Beatles performances were already restored earlier for a different purpose using the wrong key recording. While for the complete editions the other stuff was restored later and under different circumstances and with different equipment.
Just think of how long it took until they found out, that "Yellow Submarine" on Video and DVD always played a semitone too fast.
There is no reason why the Beatles should tune down their guitars only for certain shows. Also it would change the sound as you can easily hear on Yesterday. Tuned down strings also tend to make strange noises as they tend to touch the frets when being strummed.

 

Jamie - it's great to see you posting here.... welcome!
I may be completely wrong, but I don't think there'd be a speed change with modern quad machine playback. I know color frame/drop frame timing is different (video/clock time) but I think the machine would still play the original quad based entirely on the original horizontal signal and control track (24o Hz?). There are a few regular posters here who know more about quad, and I'm sure they'll chime in.
If you had access to the 2" master, you'd be able to reference signals on the audio track and/or cue track for your processing.

 

It would not be 240hz if it were going to today's NTSC /DVD since it has to be at 29.97 fps. This much I know because what's coming off tape is 15734
Blu-Ray I believe could be true 30fps

On the New York show(s) the pitch of All My Lovin is exactly Eflat minus a couple cents for the pull down caused by the 29.97. I want to hold your hand is in F#. They tuned down.

 

I believe it was established that everything came from the 2" quad masters.

There really wouldn't have been reason for anything else, since those are the best sources.

 

Jamie - RE: 240 Hz.... I meant the control track frequency.......
And again, welcome. I'm looking forward to your contributions to technical discussions.

 

But even that does not necessarily mean, that the single performances were "mastered" for video and DVD at the same time. The Beatles performances were around for many years. And as already was mentioned, you can see other sources for these performances, where they suddenly play in the right key. And also consider, that the Beatles were real professional live musicians, they learned their job in Hamburg playing for up to eight hours a night, so they knew how to tune their instruments correctly.

 

Well certainly for some of those flat performances, when you speed them up to 440 the voices go chipmonk. So they must have been tuned some degree of flat.

 

I have never seen a version of the Sullivan performance, from videotape, where they were tuned to the correct key. On top of that, the instruments are in tune with themselves.

 

Professional live musicians use alternate tunings all the time.

 

That's not quite the same thing.

 

I find simple explanations are often correct. My guess is the Beatles were tuned down a bit relative to A 440. We weren't there but I tend to believe that it was accidental and not planned.

I don't believe I have perfect pitch, but I can readily hear when my guitar is not quite tuned the same as others or recordings of others, even considerably less than a half step. I had band mates tell me I'm crazy!

As a lifelong Beatles fan and musician, I noticed that the tuning on the earlier records could be variably + - from A 440., but never a half step. This is probably because they tuned to each other.

I will give you an example: Ticket to Ride was a very different song from anything they did before. One of the reasons is that it's in the key of A, a key very familiar to guitarists but it's not quite right!

Have you noticed that they are tuned to A 435? It's a very slight change, but that song never sounds right at A 440. Try it.