Beatles CD singles & EP boxes - same mastering?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by RZangpo2, May 5, 2005.

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  1. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Where the CD singles and EP boxes overlap, is the mastering the same or different? I remember Steve saying that the early singles on the singles box have phase problems (incorrectly mastered on a stereo tape deck); is this true of the EP set as well?
     
  2. Another Side

    Another Side Well-Known Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    They are actually mastered from different masters, so the mastering is different. The single box is mastered from the single masters, and the EP box from the original EP masters. The EP box does not suffer from out of phase problems.
     
  3. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Thanks!
     
  4. trucker

    trucker Member

    Location:
    DC Suburbs
    But unless I'm mistaken, the singles box only has (little) problems on the first three or four discs. Do a search for more info. I just don't want to discourage anyone from getting the singles collection, which sounds pretty great to my ears.
     
  5. JWB

    JWB New Member

    The first 2 singles suck (they used the wrong tapes). The rest are excellent.
     
  6. Another Side

    Another Side Well-Known Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Well there are no tapes for the for the first single, and you are right about PPM, but From Me To You and She Loves You are also out of phase as is I'll Get You (Thank You Girl interestingly is not out of phase).
     
  7. MikeP5877

    MikeP5877 Uh Huh

    Location:
    Northeast Ohio
    There was a thread on this subject a couple weeks ago. The EP box was mastered from the EP master tapes, most of which are 2nd generation (Long Tall Sally and MMT being the exceptions).

    Yes, the CD singles box has some serious flaws with Love Me Do/PS I Love You, PPM/Ask Me Why, and She Loves You. Fortunately these sound much better on the EP box. You really need both boxes but they will set you back quite a few $$$.
     
  8. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    So if I read you all correctly, the following are the problems with the CD singles box, and the best alternative sources:

    LMD/PSILY - no tapes; EP box (2d gen tapes) is best CD source
    PPM/AMW - wrong tapes; vinyl 45 is only source for correct single masters ('70s recut being the best)
    From Me To You - out of phase; EP box (2d gen tapes) is best CD source
    She Loves You - out of phase; EP box (2d gen tapes) is best CD source
    I'll Get You - out of phase; is the vinyl 45 the only correct source, or is the Past Masters version OK?
    rest of singles box is fine

    another side - is your list of out-of-phase singles based on your own listening, or has SH (or someone else) posted a list?

    Mike - I already have both boxes; I'm just looking for the correct sources to use in putting together a complete singles comp. :) BTW, Dr. Ebbetts has recently put out his own complete singles comp, using the '70s recut 45s, which should be excellent; however, I find it unpleasantly bright, either because of EQ or the MC cartridge the good doctor uses.
     
  9. Andreas

    Andreas Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Well, the EP box does not contain the original single version of LMD with Ringo on drums (neither does the Singles box).

    Past Masters is the only CD source for that one, and it was mastered from a 45 needle drop.
     
  10. MikeP5877

    MikeP5877 Uh Huh

    Location:
    Northeast Ohio
    For my singles comps, I used the EP versions of Love Me Do/PS I Love You, PPM, Ask Me Why, and She Loves You. I used the singles box for everything else. From Me To You sounded better (to me) on the singles box than the EP box. I'll Get You sounds pretty much the same on PM1 compared to the singles box.
     
  11. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Dr Ebbetts' singles comp also uses the Ringo-on-drums version.
     
  12. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hmm... sounds like the vinyl 45 ('70s recut) is the best source for I'll Get You, as well as for PPM/AMW. I have the early '80s picture disc version of PPM/AMW, and made a needle drop from it. Now I'll have to hunt for the 45 of She Loves You/I'll Get You. *sigh* What an exasperating hobby! ;)
     
  13. Another Side

    Another Side Well-Known Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I actually had not heard it myself, having nothing to compare it to at the time. But once Steve mentioned the out of phase I did a test and indeed he is correct. However they are not out of phase by much. PPM in particular is only barely out of phase.

    BTW, I don't find the PPM and Ask Me Why needle drops of Dr. Ebbets too too bright. A lot of the rest of the set is a bit too EQ'd probably because of poor sources. Paperback Writer being a good example.
     
  14. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff

    Location:
    NY
    Here's a link to an old thread where Steve explains the phasing problems:

    On tape azimuth....
     
  15. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    I found, for example, "I Want To Hold Your Hand" unpleasantly bright. I will have to go case-by-case in choosing alternates for the other incorrect singles in the CD box.
     
  16. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Oops! Just read the following from our esteemed host, SH:

    So it appears that the only place to hear the correct mono version of "I'll Get You" is the 1963 single! Good luck trying to find a mint copy of that! :realmad:
     
  17. mdpierocarey

    mdpierocarey Active Member

    For my comp, for the Ringo-on-drums "Love Me Do", I found my preference with the needledrop on the U.S. Rarities LP. Too bassy, missing mid-range, but a nice, smooth, analog sound that none of the digital copies I could find had. Give it a listen if you own a copy.

    Thanks, Ron Furmanek, for getting that out there.

    Be seeing you,
    Doug Piero Carey
     
  18. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    So many questions.........Can someone explain why the EP Box would be mastered from second generation tapes? I'm sure when compiling EP's and singles, that EMI would use the same mono...and later stereo source tapes, for each set. Why wouldn't they? If the first generation tapes were available for the Singles set, why use another tape source for the EP set? And while I understand that some of the early singles were mastered incorrectly on the Singles set...what's the proof that 2 different source tapes were used? Couldn't it just be that they realized the phasing error and used a calibrated deck for the EP set? Are the mono mixes for EP tracks that also appear on the 4 mono CD's from a different generation tape as well? Thanks, Ron
     
  19. Another Side

    Another Side Well-Known Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    On the EP box set, the EP masters from the sixties were used. I don't have definitive proof that they were used, but that is the general consensus including Steve. My supposition is that they wanted to remain true to the spirit of the box set and use the EP masters. One way to make sure, I suppose, would be to play my Million Sellers vinyl EP (for example) concurrently with the EP CD. If they line up perfectly then the EP CD was made from the EP master (which is a second generation tape).

    The EP tracks that appear on the 4 original mono CD's are not made from second generation tapes (except for those that appeared as singles prior to the release of the album such as P.S. I Love You). They were made from the original album masters. That goes to show you that mastering is more important than being one generation removed.
     
  20. MikeP5877

    MikeP5877 Uh Huh

    Location:
    Northeast Ohio
  21. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Thanks for your reply Another Side,
    Questions remain still. I assumed all along that the original 60's source tapes were used to assemble both the EP set and the Singles Set. My question remains, where is the proof that the EP set uses 2nd generation tapes? Not disparaging this choice, mind you, just wondering where this imformation is coming from. Certainly the in-common tracks from A Hard Day's Night and Beatles For Sale are clearly superior on the EP set...as compared to their mono CD counterparts, and the few songs that overlap from the Singles Set are very close in sonic quality. I'll check the other thread mentioned by Mike to see if any definitive answers are there...

    Nothing definitive really. And it begs more questions. Why would the LP masters, supposedly used to assemble the EP set, be second generation? Whether the source tapes are used to assemble an LP or EP, why are these considered second generation. And who's to say the Singles Set wasn't also a tape assemblege that compiled each single, or song, master? Ron
     
  22. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    To summarize from the other thread, the consensus seems to be that the singles CDs (except for the first two) came from the singles masters, the EPs from the EP masters, and the albums from the album masters. Makes sense to me. The original EP masters would of course be a generation down from the singles or album masters they were sourced from.

    Evidence for this includes timing and just plain listening. It's also what SH believes, FWIW.
     
  23. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Yet, if I reading correctly Steve has said the EP set "sounds" better? Again, someone please explain why the EP masters are a generation removed from the LP masters? Ron
     
  24. Nobby

    Nobby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    If you make the assumption that the album masters are the first generation masters of the songs, then you cannot create an EP master of the same generation without cutting the tracks from the album master. So you have to make copies and use the copies to assemble the EP master.

    So - with the exception of Long Tall Sally and Magical Mystery Tour - the EP masters are second generation.

    See answer above!
     
  25. mdpierocarey

    mdpierocarey Active Member

    "I'll Get You" appears on the U.K. Rarities LP. That's the one that comes in the Blue Box of stereo LPs. The LP also was sold separately in the old days. The song appears on this LP in mono, not duophonic, and sounding beautifully un-futzed with.

    I think the mono tracks on that LP (which has both stereo and mono tracks) play back better without a double-Y cable.

    Anyway, that's what I used on my mono comp, and I'm sticking to it. If you have a Rarities LP, give it a listen for that track. I also burned "This Boy" from that LP for my mono comp.

    Be seeing you,
    Doug Piero Carey
     
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