Beatles CD singles & EP boxes - same mastering?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by RZangpo2, May 5, 2005.

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  1. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    If a supposed mono track plays better without a double Y cable then it is out of phase. The most common thing that happens when the double Y is used on an out of phase mono recording on a stereo record is that the top end disappears. Is that what happens on the Rarities LP?
     
  2. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    The EP set sounds better because it was mastered properly. First-gen tapes aren't everything!
     
  3. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Doug, I have a needle drop of Rarities. I'll check out IGY from there. Thanks for the tip!
     
  4. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hmm... I find that the use of a double Y cable always reduces the top end. Does this mean that all my mono LPs are out of phase? Or that the cartridge is making some kind of error? Or what? There was another thread on this topic where it was mentioned that the use of a double Y cable "tames" the top end. If this isn't due to phase error, then what is it?
     
  5. If you're hearing the top end change at all (meaning music and not noise), there's probably a phase issue somewhere. It does sound like there's a cart or other hadware problem in your system, although there are certainly stereo-cut mono LPs out there with phase issues. If you want to really test it, use a bona-fide mono LP from back in the day.
     
  6. Anthology123

    Anthology123 Senior Member

    One side note question: Would it be possible to make a good mono MMT using the singles box and from the EP box? I think all the tracks are there and if they are correctly mastered in Mono, would it create a proper mono album that should have been?
     
  7. MikeP5877

    MikeP5877 V/VIII/MCMLXXVII

    Location:
    OH
    Yep all the tracks are there. Side 1 is on the EP box and side 2 is found in the CD singles box.
     
  8. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Other sources of I'll Get You aside, you should be able to find an original UK 45 in VG+ or better condition (or Ex condition per the UK grading system) for $15 or less (although you'll likely have to get it from the UK). They're on ebay all the time. Don't forget this was the B side to She Loves You -- which was not exactly a minor hit...
     
  9. Dave D

    Dave D Done!

    Location:
    Milton, Canada
    i have an original Swan She Loves You/I'll Get You....does that have it?
     
  10. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Thanks, Marc, although I've found buying vinyl off eBay to be something of a crapshoot. :sigh:And since She Loves You, as you say, was a major hit, original copies are likely to be played to death. But I'm looking...

    On another topic, shouldn't the out-of-phase CD singles be really easy to fix? Just choose one channel (L or R), and copy it into the other channel. Hey, presto! both channels in phase. Or am I missing something? :confused:
     
  11. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Of course.
     
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  12. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    I hear ya. FWIW, I think I bought all (or damn near all) of the Beatles UK 45s off e-bay within the last couple of years. Maybe I've been lucky, but all were listed as Ex or NM (in UK parlance) and all but a couple arrived as described. Of those, one was a joke (and has since been replaced), but the other wasn't too far off the description. Granted, the sleeves were sometimes not quite as described (folks tend to forget that a little writing on sleeve is not NM or even EX), but the sleeves for nearly all of the singles were generic and are easily replaced.

    As for groove wear, She Loves You was the hit, not I'll Get You. So perhaps the B side might be less likely to be worn out...

    For what it's worth, I just did needle-drops for someone of Ticket To Ride/We Can Work It Out & SFF/Penny Lane this a.m. Both of these sound fine -- no groove wear, no pops or clicks, very minimal surface noise not noticable during the music at all.
     
  13. mdpierocarey

    mdpierocarey Forum Resident

    Hmm. First let me say I'm using my ears, not software that displays the waveform. When I play this mono track on my Rarities LP, and I put the double-Y cable on, the high notes seem to not hit as high as they did without the double-Y. I don't know if that's the top end "disappearing" or not.

    I was believing this had to do with it being a "stereo groove" on that LP, after all it is a mix of stereo and mono tracks. I.e. this record was made to be "played in stereo", even for the mono tracks, which would be the same signal on the left and right channels, eh? My understanding (mis-understanding?) from past threads was that the double-Y was really only for use with Real Mono LPs, with a mono groove made with a mono cutter.

    For example, when I play my UK 1st pressing With The Beatles vinyl, it sounds exactly the same tonally with or without the double-Y cable, but the LP sounds more mint-y and noiseless when I use the cable.

    Dang, did I do it wrong again?!? :eek:

    Sorry I didn't mean to crap up the thread with a hardware topic!

    Cheers,
    Doug Piero Carey
     
  14. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hey, Steve, you missed this one! ;)
     
  15. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialistâ„¢

    Location:
    B.C.
    I'm no expert, but I seem to recall Steve mentioning that in the stereo situation you describe that the treble does collapse because the signals are not identicle like in true mono.
     
  16. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Actually the same holds true for stereo cut mono LP's. If you're playing a stereo cut mono LP and hit your mono button (or use a double Y connector) then you should hear no change in the music only the surface noise should diminish. For example my Moby Grape mono Edsel LP (which is still mint) is stereo cut, but when I hit the mono button it does not change at all. My James Brown Federal Years LP, on the other hand, is also stereo cut, but that one does lose its top end (kind of like turning the treble dial all the way to the left) when I hit the mono button.
     
  17. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Well, theoretically it would improve the sound, but it won't get you all the way back to the sound of a true mono track. You could listen to both and find which one sounds better. Without doing a needle drop yourself, that may be the best you can do.
     
  18. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    You Guyz have lost me. What is it that you are trying to figure out?
     
  19. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Actually, I think I've thought of the answer myself. If L+R were combined to mono before the CD single was mastered, then both CD tracks will have the same out-of-phase sound. If that's the case, picking one channel over the other won't improve the sound even a teensy bit.

    There must be a way to test this using sound editing software, no? If the two channels are different -- pick one, copy it, and you're back to true mono. If both channels are identical -- too late, the damage is done.
     
  20. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    A couple of things, Steve. First,

    Which I think I answered for myself:

    And second,

    I and others have noticed this with "stereo-cut mono" recordings. Put in the double Y, and the top end is reduced. Does this mean the channels are out of phase? Can these recordings only be played back correctly in stereo?
     
  21. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Channels are out of phase, yes. A mastering goof. A good mastering job in mono will mean that no top end vanishes in mono mode even when cut on a stereo machine (like we do).

    Out of phase singles are impossible to fix correctly. If you are speaking of the CD Beatles singles box, forget about LOVE ME DO, SHE LOVES YOU, etc. Get those from the EP box where they are a generation down but mastered correctly.
     
  22. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Thanks, Steve!:wave: Of course, I'll Get You is not on the EP box, and reportedly it's out of phase on the singles box and on the '70s recut 45. No hope there except the original 45, apparently. :(

    I found that top end vanished when playing the '82 Japanese red wax mono Beatles For Sale with a double Y cable. I'm surprised; I thought these pressings were the best.
     
  23. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Well you thought wrong, bucko!

    Listen, I didn't find anything wrong with I'LL GET YOU on the CD 45 box. It's a nasty recording to begin with... I'll check again though. I think it's in phase though..
     
  24. mdpierocarey

    mdpierocarey Forum Resident

    "I'll Get You" seems to be a tough one to find here. It's not on the EP box.

    I'm not crazy about the version on the Singles CD or the Past Masters CD.

    Steve, or any of you more experienced ears out there, are the stereo-cut mono tracks on the U.K. Rarities LP, that came in the Blue Box, out of phase?

    Am I reading too much into the slight perceived loss of treble when I push my mono switch while playing that LP? I admit I have little skill at this!

    Cheers,
    Doug Piero Carey
     
  25. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Here's the conversation about "I'll Get You":

    In your original thread on this topic, Steve, you cited LMD/PSILY and PPM/AMW as examples of improper mastering. You also hinted that some of the other early singles from the 45 box, while taken from the correct tapes, were mastered out of phase ("swished out" was the term you used). I don't think there's a definitive list anywhere on the board, though.

    I'm not sure what "test" another side is referring to. In any case, it would be useful to have a definitive list of which singles are mastered out of phase on (a) the 45 singles box and (b) the CD singles box.
     
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