Beatles UK vinyl pressing questions

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Holy Zoo, Jan 22, 2003.

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  1. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-) Thread Starter

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    Beatles UK vinyl

    Calling all Beatles experts!

    What difference might I expect to hear between an original Y/B Parlophone release, a later black and silver Parlophone done in the late 60s or early 70s, and even something released as late as 1983?

    Pardon my likely misuse of the terminology, but where the original releases just mastered once ant then new stampers made from those original mothers, or did they remaster them several times over the years?

    thanks!

    Jeff
     
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  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Check the archives, pal!

    KIDDING!!

    The first cuttings were vacuum tube cuts, with gobs of analog Fairchild compression but a palpable midrange presence that you can reach out and touch.

    Cuts after the Neumann machine was installed in late 1968 sound more accurate and less stressed, but lose that midrange palpability completely.

    Some of the 1970's recuts sound quite good, usually cut flat.
     
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  3. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Can't tell you too much about the differences between pressings, but rather than labels, take a look at the matrix info. In most/all cases, there's a YEX number there. -1 should be a first cutting, -2 should be a second cutting, etc...
     
  4. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    FWIW, I just noticed that We Can Work It Out on my '70s Collection Of Beatles Oldies sounds *exactly* like it does on Past Masters 2.
     
  5. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-) Thread Starter

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    I know you're kidding, but for grins you should try doing a search on Beatles in the archives some time, it's overwhelming!! It's just easier to ask again :)

    HZ
     
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  6. kipper15

    kipper15 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    If we're talking pre-DMM stereo LP's, I own a number of the UK variants (pressings betwen 1969-1986) of all of the Beatles LP's and to my ears the late 60s/early 70s reissues are the best-sounding but only just.

    I have original Abbey Road and Let It Be UK pressings - both of these are better than the 70s and early 80s reissues but not significantly so. The 80s LP's are still very, very respectable and far better than the '88 DMM issues. One of my early 80s-issue blue box sets is in the process of being archived onto CD-R as these are the cleanest-sounding copies I own.

    I don't own any original monos but these '82 reissues I just laid my hands on sound damn good to me :)
     
  7. John Oteri

    John Oteri New Member In Memoriam

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Jeff, as far as I can tell, pressings mastered until the late 1980's are all analog, and sound very nice. Of course, I've seen some 1980's pressings that still use early 1970's cutting parts (some of the lesser titles). It's all a crapshoot unless you are savy to the innergroove number lingo and what it means. I'm not.
     
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Ya see, Johnny boy, EMI is a big company. The bottom line to them was, use the old parts until they totally wear out. So, a pressing might have a "side one" that was cut in 1970 and a "side two" that was recut in 1980 by a different engineer. They could have pressed thousands of discs like that. All the companies did it back then. It can break your mind. The only way to tell, is to actually look at the record numbers. Even then, the side "remaster" numbers might not match for a BUNCH of different reasons; one side might have had uneven numbering from the start and the other side didn't, ya see? Some RCA Living Stereo first pressings actually started at the 3rd and 4th recut.

    It's brutal!
     
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  9. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-) Thread Starter

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    Thanks all!

    I'm still flustered as to where I want to go from here. I have the '79 Japanese Odeon Beatles Collection box, which I really like. I've only been able to compare my vinyl to CDRs of the mofi vinyl (which are even brighter than my Japanese copies), and other various CDRs supposedly sourced from UK vinyl. None sound as nice as what I have at home.

    However, folks who I respect say even *they* (the Japanese Odeon's) are to bright, so I'm really curious what I'm missing out on. I'm trying to figure out if I should slowly over time drop the $$$ to buy original Y/B Parlophones, or stick with what I have.

    :confused: :help:

    HZ
     
  10. kipper15

    kipper15 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom

    If you want to save $$$ my advice to you would be to get a UK Beatles Collection (blue box). I started out with this set and there are plenty around in Mint or Near Mint condition, and for reasonable money. This way you can then decide if you want to hunt down UK originals but at least you'll have yourself a decent and complete set of UK pressings to start you off with :)

    I've never heard any Japanese Beatles vinyl - I have heard so many good things about those pressings (quiet, no surface noise, etc) but the negative comment from most people who do have them is always "they're too bright!" hence why I've avoided them.

    The black/yellow original Parlophones in Mint or Near Mint condition are becoming VERY expensive, certainly on this side of the pond. 70s or early 80s black/silver Parlophones can be had for a lot less money, hence my suggestion to track down a blue box and take it from there. I certainly believe you'll prefer it to the Japanese version.


    Kipper
     
  11. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    I think this is really important to consider. The demand in the UK was obviously huge at the height of the Beatles' poplarity. There's little chance of later pressings being sourced from original lacquers as they would've been worn out by that time. They would've had to be recut. While some early 1970s sides may source lacquers cut during EMI's tube equipment era, I've never heard a later pressing with that tell-tale sound. Following this rationale, I think it can safely be said that the matrix information on later pressings can be deceptive. A mid-1970s pressing that sources a -1 lacquer for each side almost certainly does not originate from an original lacquer. Rather, it would be sourced from a later recut. I believe the only way one can be certain the matrix information refers to original metal parts is with original pressings...with the exception of the early 1980s mono reissues. Other slightly later pressings would have to be considered on a case-by-case basis. Having said this, there's nothing wrong with later pressings. I have quite a few and find them quite pleasing. While my favorites are the original pressings, later pressings aren't as far removed from these as many who haven't compared might be inclined to believe. Remember the nature of the audiophile is to perceive what are often rather small differences as huge because we want only the best. I guess where I'm going with this is finding original pressings is great, but the market has driven prices for choice copies into the stratosphere! The days of relatively inexpensive and clean original pressings, which wasn't all that long ago, are unfortunately gone. If one has the means, original pressings represent the pinnacle in sound quality. However, later all-analog pressings still nicely convey the essence of the recordings. Whichever route one chooses, there's no reason why the music can't be thoroughly enjoyed.
     
  12. Vinyl-Addict

    Vinyl-Addict Groovetracer Manufacturer

    Location:
    USA
    Slowly is the keyword. As Kipper said, the originals go for big $, even the beaten and battered go for a lot. I would stay away from Ebay if you want EX to NM pressings, they tend to go for Huge $$$. Try to find a trustworthy online dealer who sells with a fixed price and a return policy.
    I have purchased quite a few records on Ebay but it's hit & miss, luckily I've only run across 1 or 2 sellers who exaggerate their grading. Now I only buy from sellers I know and trust.

    Great advice Kipper! :)
    BTW, Kipper, I own a N/M pressing of "With The Beatles"(Mono) -7N
    The record doesn't have 1 mark on it, both sides are as close to perfect as I have ever seen, and seeing how this LP is 40 years old, well, wow, that's all I can say. The cover is brilliant too, you have to look hard to see any ring on the black area of the front cover and the back is unmarked too. In my entire record collection, that, my UK mono pepper promo and perfect UK MMT pressing are my pride and joy. Can you tell that I love The Beatles?:winkgrin:
     
  13. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    HZ:

    I say go for the gold (or the black and yellow, in this case :) )... it's true that you'll spend a lot for the LPs, but once you have a couple to compare side by side, you'll see what all the fuss is about.

    And it's true that you might want to consider getting your feet wet with, say, 70's pressings, but what Steve said before is also true-- they just don't have the absolutely **visceral** midrange that the originals do.

    I had a 1973 stereo pressing of "Revolver" before I got my '66 version, and although it was nice, the '66 original ran rings around it.

    And for the earlier albums, it's really no contest... I got hooked into buying a 1963 NM "With the Beatles" (stereo), just because of the sheer power of the mastering. Those binaural mixes are hardly my favorite (and I've owned quite a few later pressings from various countries), but once you hear the impact of the original UK LP, it makes an enormous impression (even with the "hole" in the mix)!!

    Just my $.02...

    -Kevin
     
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  14. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    Once you go in you might never get out:rolleyes: :D . But it's true, those original black'n'golds are very addictive. I only have a few so far, but there really is a difference that only seems subtle until you pull out a CD counterpart....it's that kind of comparison that has everybody begging for proper redos, however unlikely to happen that seems. The old 45's take quite a beating, too, if you can track them down.

    ED:cool:
     
  15. Jeff H.

    Jeff H. Senior Member

    Location:
    Northern, OR

    Brother ED, where on earth were you able to find the ever elusive black and gold Parlophone pressings of the Fabs albums? I've been looking for a few and keep hoping to find some 60's era UK 45's which are quite pricey. I saw a red Parlophone pressing of "Please Please Me" in VG+ go for about $160.00 on eBay. Ouch!!!
     
  16. kipper15

    kipper15 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom

    I couldn't agree more Arin. A very important point you're making there. The majority of people paying out the big $ for mint (or close to it) copies are collectors and in most cases they are NOT buying them for the sound quality. The fact that demand for these LP's is increasing all the time coupled with the fact that many people (be they hardcore collectors or even casual fans) are holding onto them is driving the prices into orbit.

    Unfortunately this also has the negative side-affect of making some people - who are not knowledgable about these things - think anything with the word "BEATLES" on it must be worth thousands of $. You know, the sort of person who finds a pile of old records in a box in the attic, in amongst them are some Beatles LP's and they start thinking "Wow, these must be worth thousands" when they haven't got the first idea at all what they've got or what they're really worth and care even less that they're probably scratched and therefore unlistenable. The said person then puts his collection of heavily scratched and virtually worthless LP's up for auction on eBay for silly money. eBay is a case in point; I see some really poor quality Beatles stuff on there being auctioned for far too much money.

    Of course this can also work in your favour. I know somebody who, a few years ago, went to a car-boot sale in his local town. There was a guy there selling his small but well-kept vinyl collection because he had "gone over to CD, didn't play it any more and needed space in the house". In amongst the seller's mediocre selection my fried found a UK BLACK & GOLD Parlophone Please Please Me and a UK PARLOPHONE EXPORT copy of the White Album. The records were almost mint. The seller wanted £5 for BOTH of them - on the open market these LP's are worth easily £2,500+. The guy selling the records simply didn't know what he had.

    Sorry to veer slightly O/T here but there is a point: Bargains can be found if you're prepared to spend a lot of your time looking around but at the same time you could end up paying way over the odds for product that simply isn't worth it.
     
  17. kipper15

    kipper15 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom

    Glad you like your 60s WTB LP. I share your love of this LP too. And if you love the Beatles you're on the right forum my friend!

    The first Beatles LP I ever heard at the age of about 10 or 11 was WITH THE BEATLES. It was a black/yellow label original mono. A friend at school loaned it to me (it belonged to his father) and I was blown away by the sound of it. I've always had a soft spot for that LP - hence my avatar being what it is!

    I remember when I had to give my friend's dad's LP back, by which time I'd saved enough money to buy my own copy, I rushed out to my local record shop and got one. This was about 1979/80 so of course only the stereo LP was available by then.

    I got my new copy home and played it and I remember I was immediately disappointed. It lacked something the original mono LP had in abundance but at that time, and at the age I was, words like "dynamics" and "bass extension" and "tube mastering" were most definitely not in my vocabulary!!!

    Even though I was nowhere near being an audiophile at that young age I was fast developing a passion for music and for the Beatles in particular. I guessed at the time it must be the fact that it was a stereo version was partly to blame for my disappointment. I remember going to the store to see if they could change it for a mono LP to be told it was available in stereo only.

    Tonight I've been playing some of my recently acquired UK 1982 mono reissues. A quick blast of a couple of tracks off WTB brought a big smile to my face - there was THAT sound again - first time I'd heard that album sounding so good in over 20 years :)

    Cheers

    Kipper
     
  18. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'm not so sure about that. While the mothers/stampers would most likely be different for a '70s "-1" pressing (that's what the letters are for), I really don't think they'd make another cutting with the same matrix number as an earlier cutting. While a '70s "-1" pressing might come from the 70th mother or something, it should still be from the same original lacquer/cutting.

    FWIW, all of the '70s pressings I've seen have been -2 through -4.
     
  19. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    Two places: conventions, and blind luck at flea markets, smaller stores that still carry vinyl. You still pay a little, but not like the eBay nonsense, where you're bidding against collectors even more fanatical than you are. The cons don't occur as much as in the past, but real paradise for a collector. For one thing, you can hold the piece, seriously give it a good lookin' over(or listen, if the seller's got a rig)and, if you buy enough, usually talk them down to something more than reasonable. The reissues also go for good prices at such venues, since dealers tend to put the big price tags on things they know are really obscure--red Parlophones, for instance--rather than the black and gold 1sts. I still don't have nearly as many as I want, but all in due course; they'll turn up in unlikely places.

    But it's getting harder; so many new(and often inexperienced)sellers out there figuring to make a killing on eBay, and often do. The newbies to collecting are really the ones making it tougher on the rest of us: they seem to have money to burn and are unafraid to burn it with inflated winning bids on items often not all that uncommon. I still prefer finding the out of the way places where the prices are based on guides but haven't gotten ridiculous. They're still scattered about everywhere; you just have to go out and look. And bring a fat wad of cash and on conscience, you'll be fine.

    ED:cool:
     
  20. xios

    xios Senior Member

    Location:
    Florida
    Luke,I checked my 1"EMI" and 2"EMI" first four stereos and found the following:
    Please Please Me- 1 EMI- "-1" lacquer
    With The Beatles- 1 EMI- "-2" Lacquer- but I also have two 1963-1964 first pressings and they are both "-2" as well.
    Hard Days Night- 2 EMI- "-1" lacquer
    Beatles For Sale- 1 EMI- "-1" lacquer
     
  21. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    How do they sound?!
     
  22. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    I think those lacquers went through an awful lot. They had to eventually start recutting. I have an original pressing of "Sgt Pepper's LHCB" and a mid-1970s pressing. Both sides of both copies source a -1 lacquer. While the original pressing was obviously cut with tube electronics, the mid-1970s pressing I own sounds more like a solid-state cut. If this is the case, we have original and recut lacquers sharing the same number.
     
  23. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    I think this pretty much says it all. With later pressings, you've gotta listen to know if it is sourced from tube or solid-state lacquers. I don't think simply checking the lacquer numbers will tell.
     
  24. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Here's an interesting question to ponder, Arin. You say your two "-1" copies of Pepper don't sound the same. Well, what do they look like? Are the matrix numbers in the same place in relation to the grooves? Is the run out area the same size on both?

    I'd say it all comes down to this - do the look the same or different?
     
  25. xios

    xios Senior Member

    Location:
    Florida
    My "-1" copies of the first two lps and Beatles For Sale have similar groove layouts to their respective first pressings. The mother and stamper numbers are low- I think the fact that they pressed much fewer originals of these allowed them to use old parts. They sound very much like the earlier pressings. The 2 EMI Hard Days Night has a slightly different groove layout to a first press. It sounds fine and I can't say I hear a difference.
     
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