Belt drive TT for headphone use - what to look for?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Benzion, Apr 17, 2018.

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  1. baconbadge

    baconbadge Chooglin’

    Location:
    Queens, NY
    Yup, exactly. I'm in NYC too. My TD-160 is coming from Dave at Vinyl Nirvana. I would recommend the classifieds on AudioKarma- maybe post in the WTB thread (here too, obviously). There's a ton of people in the tri-state area, so you could audition first.
     
  2. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    LOL, I was trying to buy that table from him when he originally listed it. Then he changed his mind. Then I bought a Denon DD deck, Then he changed his mind again and decided to sell it afterwards, but I had the Denon already. Then you bought it... Enjoy!

    I'm looking for a belt deck for now. DD is easier - in due time I'll get the new 1200GR.
     
  3. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I will give it a closer look, but honestly prefer to move on beyond Pro-Ject.
     
  4. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    It was a low plateau in the hi-fi valley. Certainly one of the better entry level choices. I prefer the Rega tables to the Pro-Ject at their respective price points. Once you get over $1k, some other brands are also noteworthy, but I think that you should at least go and listen to the new Rega Planar 6 at your budget. It sounds really nice and is a pleasure to operate. You'd have to invent reasons not to like it.
    -Bill
     
  5. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    It was my first turntable, after a long break from analog, period. It served its purpose well, gave me a learning experience. Now I can move beyond.

    I have an instinctive preconception against Rega. Don't ask me why - it's probably more me than Rega. But there it is. But if you asked for a reason - you only have to open this forum. No published W/F or S/N, no VTA adjustment, reported speed variations, reported grounding issues, arm that favors Rega carts and needs improvisations for others, you name it.. I've never experienced any of it first hand, but reading about it has given me an aversion to the brand.

    I could live with reported issues for a $400 TT, but not for a $2000 one.
     
    punkmusick likes this.
  6. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Don't take hearsay to heart; go listen for yourself. You don't have to satisfy anyone else, and it would be foolish to make assumptions that can only be a disadvantage for you.
    -Bill.
     
    andybeau likes this.
  7. Wally Swift

    Wally Swift Yo-Yoing where I will...

    Location:
    Brooklyn New York
    He's asked to be put 1st on the list should I decide to resell it. Of course he is but I doubt I'll ever sell it. It's all the table I need.
     
    Benzion likes this.
  8. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Then it might make the most sense to service your Debut Carbon DC to make sure it’s operating to spec, and continue building your SL1200 GR budget.
     
  9. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Based on advice from herein, I'd listened to the spinning table with no record on. The noise is quite low, certainly not at the level of complaining. So, obviously there's noise transfer/amplification through the plinth/platter/pickup.

    I will try a thin felt mat atop the acrylic platter first. Then maybe a drop of oil into the bearing - could use advise on what kind. Then will see/hear the results. If all else fails - will come back to the topic of a new TT.
     
  10. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    Different records make difference? Do some records have more "whoosh" or other noise than others?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  11. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    That should be the case. Honestly, trying to achieve headphone level silence between tracks from a turntable seems like a fool’s errand. The weakest link is going to be the records themselves. Some will be quiet enough and some won’t.
     
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  12. Davey

    Davey NP: Hania Rani/Dobrawa Czocher ~ Inner Symphonies

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    You can also try a test without the belt, motor running with stylus on the stationary record, that rules out the platter bearing and leaves the motor in play.
     
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  13. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    The bearing should be of the sintered bronze type. In that case, the bearing pores act as an oil reservoir, so it should be maintenance free for a very long time.

    Having owned the Debut Carbon, I agree that it's a noisy table as a whole. I haven't listened to the Marantz play records, but I did get an opportunity to spin one at a Magnolia. All specs aside, the Marantz should be much quieter. This is because it has a more robust platter bearing, a round belt (low contact area), separate motor housing, no subplatter and far superior tonearm.
     
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  14. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Whoosh I understand - that's solely the record surface noise, which, aside from good cleaning, I cannot help or control. But, I also hear other stuff, purely mechanical, that I'm trying to deal with.

    And yes, to answer your question - some records are noisier than others.
     
    punkmusick likes this.
  15. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Good advise, thank you, will do.
     
  16. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Yes, but not the motor operating under a load, so it still won't be quite the same.
     
  17. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Keep in mind that main spindle bearing noise that’s not audible to the unaided ear can still be generating plenty of noise for a sensitive cartridge to pick up. Fresh lubricant can work miracles. Proj-ject recommends this oil:

    Pro-Ject: Grease It Silent Groove Oil for Turntable Bearings

    . . . and it works extremely well. Rega oil will work perfectly well too. The other oil I like is this one from Origin Live:

    Turntable Oil by Origin Live

    Two years of daily use means you need fresh oil after cleaning the bearing, thrust plate and spindle shaft. That simple service could make huge difference.
     
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  18. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Actually I suspect a lot of vinyl whoosh is motor vibration transferred via plinth and arm mounting. You want less of all that noise, get a table with a motor and arm mounted on separate surfaces, and/or one that minimizes transmission of motor energy to the arm by conversion to heat or something. (And which also terminates whatever energy is also being transferred from arm to plinth/arm mount instead of reflecting it back.) Also, if you're looking at an AC synchronous motor driven belt drive table look for one that drives the motor with a purpose build amplifier with separate lines for the different phases of the motor power supply, or, since there are few of those and they're very expensive, one that has a motor supply that reduced voltage to the motor after the platter is up to speed to reduce cogging torque. Of course there records with noisier surfaces and quieter ones, there's stylus groove friction, there's acoustic and mechanical breakthrough from sources outside the table itself, there's needle chatter, there's bearing rumble. But the biggest source of extra energy in a turntable is a freakin' motor coupled to the platter and usually to the same surface that the arm is mounted to as well.
     
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  19. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    You have any reasonably priced specific recommendations? So far one person gave his voice to the Marantz TT15, one to Rega Planar 6, and one to Pro-Ject RPM 5.
     
  20. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Nah, I'm not really up on what's out there or at what price points, I haven't bought a turntable in years so I haven't heard any of the new production tables so I have no first hand idea about the tables you've mentioned. I'm just thinking about what the design elements are to look for which, in my experience, have an impact on mechanical noise in typical belt-drive AC synchronous motor turntables.
     
  21. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    Interesting how oil with an audio brand is priced higher for 2 ounces than a liter of an equivalent product with Mobil 1 on the label.
     
    Benzion likes this.
  22. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I can't do headphones with my sl1200 and 150mlx, bottlehead seduction phono. I can hear too much groove noise and it is too flat. With speakers though it is another story or I'd pass it along.

    I do use a thorens td160 with dl103 and ps audio gcph with the same headphone setup and it is as you say quite glorious.

    Both tables are setup, maintained and lubed where they need properly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
    SirMarc likes this.
  23. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    You just gave me an idea. I may move my better belt-drive, the AR suspension table, from the living room, where most of my listening is done through speakers anyway, to the bedroom system, where headphones are used more often. That way, the Pro-Ject that sounds fine with speakers can continue to do so in the living room, and I will have a better rig for headphone use in the bedroom, without having to buy one. Brilliant! Thank you.

    BTW - I run a Zu Denon 103 on the AR, too.
     
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  24. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
  25. Old Audiophool

    Old Audiophool Forum Resident

    Location:
    Melbourne, Fl.
    I have to say +1 for the Marantz TT15, great quiet table for the money.
     
    Benzion likes this.
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