Best Cartridge/Stylus for Used Records?

Respectfully, I have read this in many places, and I also own the MP-110 for a few months now. It is a good cartridge for $100, but I don't get why so many think it is s"better" on surface noise - in my experience it is just not the case. Compared to what? What other cartridges do you own, just curious? There is no magic in the MP-110 that makes it relatively better on surface noise than other cartridges as far as I know, but could be wrong - educate me!

I am not saying I am right or wrong, just sharing what I have experienced. The MP-110 is a 0.4 x 0.7mm stylus, which is on the bigger side of the high quality elliptical. I get better results on older records with the AT120EB at 0.3mm x 0.7mm than the Nagaoka but YMMV. And the DL-110 trumps both of them.

It is a good cartridge, but for noisy records I would not reach of any of the ones I just mentioned unless there were no other choices. There are better options, but it is not a "one cartridge for all situations" deal - for instance I would grab a different cartridge for a so-so condition 1959 Mono pressing or a 1961 Columbia 6eye, and a different one still for a 2014 180g pressing that was not in good shape....

Interestingly though, one of those cartridges in my arsenal is the Nagaoka MP-100 (note it is not the 110) which is an 0.6mm conical, that would do a much better job IMHO at quieting down noisy records ***BUT IT DEPENDS ON THE RECORD**** it is not a one cartridge for all cases deal. But if I had a 1979 Atlantic Led Zep pressing that was not in excellent condition, the 0.6mm MP-100 might be a good choice - maybe the record was trashed using a 0.7mm elliptical with too much TF - then the MP-100 would track below that damage in the groove and sound better. On the flipside, the MP-110 would sound worse because it might be tracking higher in the groove where the damage is.

Again, there are many factors here - and it is NOT a one shot deal. YMMV

 

I’m currently using a Grado Platinum Statement which is a much better cart than the Nagaoka mp110. I still maintain I feel the Nagaoka had a forgiving nature with surface noise. Nothing to educate I’m affraid. That’s just how I remember it. I also think it was a very good tracker for the money by the way.

 

No worries, there is no right or wrong answers - just asking you "compared to what" as sometimes that is the best indicator or relative performance. I just have seen in many places how the Nagaoka MP-110 "is quieter on surface noise" and my first question is "compared to what" and the second one is "OK what magic is the MP-110 using that I am not aware of"

That's all, I am an engineer by nature, and I always need to answer the "why"

 

I hear you. Often in this hi-fi hobby of ours a certain “magic” aspect is accepted. It’s not there. Rather there’s a technical explanation to what we’re hearing. Unfortunately I cannot give you one in this case.

 

I use an Ortofon Super OM series cart on one of my turntables. It seems to play through imperfections quite nicely.

 

I have only one thing to say to that --- Go Blackhawks!

 

Ha...that must be a new brand.

 

Nope, both Original Six!

 

Yep...Stan Mikita and Bobby Hull...lol.

 

The 2M Red is very bright sounding.

 

So this is the first response that gets into actual stylus dimensions. I've done a bit of research into the dimensions with the understanding that the deeper you go into the groove the more you avoid surface noise, scratches, abrasions, etc. However, the stylus that did the damage on each used record is often unknowable, as you point out. So that makes it a real challenge to find the "right" stylus for "used" records, because there really is no right one. In that case, it's more appropriate to find the "right used records for your stylus, simply by tossing/returning those that don't sound good.

But, if the object is to avoid surface noise, which is a common trait of used records, deeper is better, right? Here's what found for most of what's been mentioned thus far:

Ortofon 2m Red $100 Elliptical .3x.7mm
Sumiko Pearl $120 Elliptical .2x.8mm
Sumiko Black Pearl $100 Spherical .6mm
Ortofon 2m Blue $250 Nude elliptical .3x.7mm
Ortofon Quintent Blue $550 Nude elliptical .3x.7mm
Shure M35x $60 Spherical .7mm
Denon DL-110 $350 Special elliptical solid diamond 0.1 x 0.2 mm rectangular
Audio-Technica AT-440 $200 Microline .12mm
Audio-Technica AT-540 $250 Microline 2.2 x 0.12 mm
Nagaoka MP110 $125 elliptical 0.4 x 0.7 mm
LP Gear AT95VL $145 Vivid lines 6/75 µm

So then a .6mm spherical will sit deeper than a .7mm spherical. So all else equal should avoid noises from surface blemishes. But how do I tell which elliptical sits deeper? For example, does a .2x.8mm sit deeper than a .2x.7mm? Maybe I just need to do some math... Also, some of these numbers just look weird to me, so I could definitely use some education here and corrections where necessary.

 

Also, you say there are "better options" out there, but then didn't list them. I'd looooove to know what these are. Thanks!

 

But I did list one - and gave an example - the conical is a better option, and gave the MP-100 as one. Extend it from there, there are others, but it is the conical and size that is the key in that example. And since MANY have classic rock / other from 1970 forward, that works for a lot of people.

Actually, I started typing a post to answer further, and give more examples, but it started getting long winded... I am going to work on it a little. It is not a simple answer, but I think you know that. Plus, when I searched on this information on the web it is always scattered, just snippets here and there and there was a comprehensive view on how to play a not so good mono record from the early 60's, etc or a stereo pressing from 1959. Plus there was as much misinformation as there was information. Then again, that 0.6mm / conical idea will still work, and even on mono if you Y split, it just won't be the BEST in all cases because of the way different records were cut from different eras.

The whole idea rests on with old records, a conical, especially one that can track BELOW the probable damage -like a 0.7mm for the 1950's 1.0mm groove- or the 0.6mm for the records cut / used with mainly 0.7mm styli - works sometimes.

NOW, if someone took a penknife, and ran it across your record, you are toast anyway - same with the damage coming from poor handling where it looks like someone skateboarded on it across asphalt - there is NOTHING you can do, certain types of damage are "throw the record away" damage, and unless you like a lot of clicking and popping, there is no magic cartridge that will fix your problem.

Realize just that - there is no magic here, and much of the success of using a different cartridge to "quiet the record down" rides on the fact it is not riding in the same spot in the groove where the damage resides.

Another cartridge I use - Denon DL-103, and I also use a Shure M44-G in some cases... for the same reasons stated, but for different eras.

NOTE: I typed all this in like 5 min, and did not proofread it - I am trying to hop in the shower, my wife is taking me out to dinner... so cheers, I hope something here helped someone.

EDIT - Wait, before getting up, I just noticed your post above - it sounds like you already get most of this concept, I will read it later.... we are probably on the same message.... part of the answer to your question is "trial and error" like anything in the audio world... you don't know unless you have a crystal ball how it was played, there are certain rules of thumb you employ, and it does not always work... especially if the damage was done by a 0.6mm and you are using an 0.6mm... common sense!

Then there are other complications and even the smartest guys have trouble here - you don't always know how a record was cut, even if you know the era! Especially during the period of shifting from Mono to Stereo, then changing cutters in the mid-60's, etc. But that is where my expertise breaks down - I learned more from trial and error than being an expert on how records are made - there are plenty of those here though!!

Cheers to you!!

 

I’m tracking and yes pretty sure we’re on the same page. Coming up with some new questions here. Like a) what are the most common stylus types? And where do they tend to wear grooves? Theoretically if you could identify a stylus type that avoided the most commonly worn grooves and track cleanly on fresh vinyl you’d have found a stylus that’s well suited for used records. AND if you could track BELOW the existing worn grooves you’d do a better job of avoiding surface noise at the same time.

I’m sure that’s FAR easier said than done. And of course, it’s a numbers game as every record will have been worn differently. I’d really love to know if anyone’s put thought to this though as it could be a way to breath new life into many used records...

 

That was my reaction when I had the Debut Carbon with Red I picked up for my son at my house before he was able to take possession. When listening on headphones, the sound was fine, but very "left ear, right ear". My Grado Red seems to distribute the sound more evenly.

OTOH, I thought the 2M Red was exceptional when it came to surface noise. I think it's a cart that would be best in a mellower phono stage or system.

 

I use a Pro-Ject Tube Box S, and that seems to suit it just fine.

 

Aha! A theory confirmed!

 

Really keen to hear how the 2m Red sounds after it's been worn in. Only got the damn thing last week and have barely put a few hours into it. Even with the phono stage I think that if people do not like too much gain then it is best to stay away from this cart.

 

Biggest problem is that you can't easily swap carts on those Pro-ject tonearms. If you are stuck with one cart, stop buying used records in bad condition. VG+ or better, or just pass. Then invest in an Rcm and some enzyme record cleaner.

 

I agree with Stereoguy. Love the M91 ED. When I came to this thread I fully expected people to be saying 2mm bronze because they like it relative to the 2mm black for picking up less surface noise, but I have a 2mm bronze and it is nothing to write home about with less than pristine records. On new stuff I like it a lot, but not on old records so much.

 

I've got pro-ject debut carbon hooked up to a Marantz (warm sound) and to Klipsch Hereys (bright) The jury is out on whether or not this will be a good combination after the 2m Rd wears in. But it's just feeling too bright so far after about 10 hours of play. I'm hoping to address this with a warmer cart, but it's possible a tube pre-amp is in my future as well...

 

At this point, I think that Nagaoka MP-110 is winning out. From everything I've read on this thread and the reviews, in particular the one below, I think it's the best and most cost-effective fit for my system. It seems likely to be higher quality, warmer, and more forgiving than the current Ortofon 2m Red - and because of my bright Heresy speakers this seems like the right direction. I was leaning towards the MP-150 or MP-200, but the much higher price tag kept me at bay, in particular as the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, while respectable, isn't exactly high-end. Didn't want to get too much cart for my table. Couldn't find the sorts of reviews for the MP-100 I was hoping for to back up that purchase, even though I get the sense behind it as concerns lessening noise on used records.

And of course, this won't be my last upgrade ever... so seems like a solid place to start. Thanks for everyone's input and feedback. It's much appreciated and very enlightening to boot.

 

But all that being said, I'm gonna continue to study this. This link is fascinating in regards to different stylus types and benefits/drawback:

Stylus Shape Information | Soundsmith

 

You move fast LOL. At this point I am getting confused on your objective.... if you are looking for a good cartridge in the $100 range, the MP-110 is a fine choice. I own one, it is a good cartridge.

I have watched Ian's videos too, his choices / recommendations are not "gold", they are just his own choices. Like everything in audio, YMMV. Not everyone agrees with some of his assessments - for instance, his assessment of the AT-400mlb, NOT my experience in the slightest. Many would beg to differ, but I respect his choice as his choice. Personally, my AT-440mlb IMHO is a better cartridge than the MP-110. It is a nude line contact vs a bonded 0.4mm elliptical.

Also, Ian made an assessment of the Lounge MKiii - watch that, and you will see my point. His review completely and utterly trashed the Lounge, which many on this forum have commented on in the past, with many discounting him due to that review. Not my experience either - I own two Mani's and two MKiii's (one for MM, one for MC with COpla) and although the Mani is a great budget choice, a giant killer for MOST under $300, I think the Lounge is far and away a better stage. Not just from my own ears perspective, from an architecture, quality parts perspective. The Lounge uses TWO high quality power supplies in a dual mono design... that is tough to compete with in sub $500.

Stepping back, I thought one of your objectives was to "breath life" into your old vinyl... I guess now I don't know what you are trying to do - is your old vinyl not in the best of shape? Or are you just trying to find the best budget cartridge that sounds good? If your budget is a $100 and your vinyl plays well, the MP-110 is a good choice, and I would have trouble recommending anything in the $100 price point that competes. But there are better cartridges IMHO (but that is just my opinion). I would stretch a little if you can try other cartridges, like a DL-110... which you can find for $229 range, don't buy it for the $349 the Needle Doctor is tyring to perscribe you....

Anyway, just some thoughts. To me, you will never know until you can COMPARE for yourself, if your budget and time do not allow that, and your budget is $100, the MP-110 is a great choice.

 

LOL - when I was typing my response encouraging you to be patient you post this... you and I are on the same wavelength a lot. Don't be in a rush. And if you can afford, there is no ONE cartridge that does it all - if you are trying to find the one "end all be all" that might be part of your thrash.