Best Pono Headphones?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Diver110, May 24, 2015.

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  1. Diver110

    Diver110 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Camas
    I am going to be living away from home for about 6 months. I have heard balanced is the best way to listen to a Pono. True? Headphone recommendations?
     
  2. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Balanced is the way to go with the PonoPlayer.
    The June issue of Stereophile has a follow-up review on the Pono that covers balanced mode.

    While you're away from home are you going to need true portability? Do you really need the small size and battery powered use? Will you need sealed headphones to use in noisy environments or will fully open headphones work?

    If you don't need true portability you get better performance using a "transportable" setup rather than a true portable setup. Using a laptop, a USB DAC & amp, and good headphones. A transportable system optimized for classical music listening would be something like a laptop, an Ayre Codex 1, and Sennheiser HD800. Difficulty is the sticker shock, the HD800 are large and will take lots of space in the luggage, and the Ayre Codex 1 hasn't been released yet.

    I haven't tried the HD800 with a Pono yet. I haven't yet had access to a HD800 with balanced cable to try it yet. The Senn HD800 is very nice for classical music. Very nice.
     
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  3. Diver110

    Diver110 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Camas
    Thanks. In fact I am driving to where I am going and will be living in an Extended Stay, so true portability is not vital. Unless it kicks the Pono's a**, for 6 months it may not be worth the coin, though.
     
  4. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    The Ayre Codex 1 is expensive. It would only make potential sense if it was something that you'd want to use in your home system afterwards. The Senn HD800 is also expensive. And would only make sense if you're crazy about audio. It is a great headphone for classical. And it presents a large soundstage (large for a headphone) that is easier for people used to speakers to adapt to compared to other headphones.

    I also just wanted to put out the idea of using transportble gear. It gives you more options.

    Some headphone options for the Pono with an ear to classical music listening

    Sennheiser HD600 or HD650 along with a custom balanced cable for them. These headphones will need the extra power available in balanced mode in order to work well. They are good headphones for classical music listening. Price range for those headphones is around $300-$400. Plus about $100 for a custom balanced cable for them. You can track current and historical Amazon prices for those headphones at camelcamelcamel (HD600 tracking) (HD650 tracking). The HD650 was having some good prices recently, then just shot up about a day ago. Amazon pricing can be like that. Custom balanced Pono compatible cables for the HD600/HD650 can be found on eBay and at SurfCables.

    Audeze headphones are also good. They sound good with the Pono. They'll need balanced cables to work well with the Pono. Their soundstage is smaller. Their sound tends to be more suitable for rock music than classical, but I find them to work well for classical if you're OK with their somewhat closed-in soundstage. There are Audeze headphone models from $700 on up to $2000. Ideally the Audeze headphones want a more powerful amp than the Pono can deliver, but the little Pono still manages to drive them well enough to enjoy. I use an LCD-2 with my PonoPlayer.

    And the Sennheiser HD800. It will need balanced mode from the Pono. The price is crazy. The sound quality though matches. You may be able to find a local dealer where you can audition them if the price hasn't shocked you out of considering them.

    If you're looking to keep the cost somewhat reasonable then I'd go with the HD600 or HD650. They're terrific headphones that do classical well.
     
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  5. Henry Love

    Henry Love Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicagoland
  6. Diver110

    Diver110 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Camas
    Someone gave me a pair of V-Moda headphones a while back. They are just sitting on the shelf. Where do they rank in the scheme of things?
     
  7. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    The V-Moda headphones are good. Good in the sense that they don't suck and V-Moda is trying to do good sounding headphones. But they're tuned for rock-n-roll and electronic rather than classical. They have a little bit of a boosted bass. And sound is tuned more for punch than for delicacies, neutrality, clarity, and soundstage.

    Most headphone reviews only consider rock music. Which makes picking a headphone that is well suited for classical rather difficult. Because few of the reviews, and few of the advice you'll get from others, will consider how they do for classical music.

    One thing I really find neat about the PonoPlayer is that its sound is slightly tilted to being complementary to classical music listening rather than being more biased to rock music. Which is something I find very welcome.
     
  8. Diver110

    Diver110 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Camas
    Thanks. It sounds like something in the Sennheiser line will be what I want, though I don't know if I am yet ready to spring for the 800's.
     
  9. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    The HD800 is in crazy land. It's an expensive headphone.
    I consider myself to be in crazy territory when it comes to headphones. And I don't have an HD800 yet. It's inevitable that I'll have one eventually. But yeah, you've got to be a little crazy to consider a headphone like that. There's good speakers that cost less.

    The other issue is that I like pipe organ music. So I went the Audeze headphone route. Because the Audeze headphones are better suited for pipe organ than the HD800. I do consider the HD800 to be a better classical music headphone (for orchestral and chamber and piano and such) than any of the Audeze headphones. Compromises need to be made in real life. But eventually I'll likely also have the HD800.

    I'm also someone who would go crazy to not have my music for a month or more away from home. When I travel and will be gone for a month or more I bring a "transportable" headphone setup with me. If I'm going by plane that means my entire carry-on luggage is full of headphone gear. Including a hybrid tube amp. And my big Audeze headphones. And a DAC. And a laptop. And hard drives. And cables. And accessories. It's a minor adventure getting all that through airport security. Especially the tube amp. But the Audeze headphones also appear to look suspicious on the x-ray. If the amp doesn't get my luggage pulled aside for inspection then the headphones do.

    An HD600 or HD650 along with the V-Moda headphones would likely be quite suitable for you for 6 months away from your home system. The HD600/HD650 for classical. The V-Moda when you need sealed and/or want more punch or energy for rock. The HD800 would be something to consider only if you are really addicted to music listening and would go crazy if you had to compromise with lower quality listening. You do have a really nice speaker system home gear. Getting a portable/transportable headphone system to match that level and quality is going to take some thought.
     
  10. Diver110

    Diver110 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Camas
    Thanks for all of your help, HS. It is very much appreciated. I just got a set of Tchaikovsky works (on DG, which I usually avoid like the plague--but this was with Pletnev and the Russian National Orchestra, and I like to listen to music from an orchestra from the same country as the composer. They seem to me to have a better feel for the music. And for a change, the DG sound was tolerable.) So I listened to the first disc. Then I plugged my V-Moda into my Macbook Pro and listened to some Mozart and popular music I had ripped for an ex-girl friend using Apple lossless.. Not nearly as good as my component system, of course, zip soundstage, but I could imagine upgrading to a point where it would work for me. Do your tubes survive travel?
     
  11. Diver110

    Diver110 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Camas
    PS You live in my favorite state. I will be vacationing there much of July.
     
  12. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    The tubes survive travel. They're little E88CC/6922 tubes. Not overly delicate. I take them out of the amp and pack them with a little bit of protection and bubble wrap around them. Plus they're in my carry-on where I can keep them from getting knocked around by baggage handling.

    I'm looking to upgrade my "transportable" setup. And I think I'll be able to get the sound that I'm after with all solid state. The Pono, Ayre Codex, Cavalli's smallish amp, and Light Harmonic's Geek products have given me hope that portable and transportable solid state gear will be able to do what I want. Just a matter now of finding the right combination among all of those choices and a few others.

    The V-Moda could possibly sound better on the Pono compared to the Macbook. Could end up with a slightly more favorable soundstage. But impossible to know without hearing the combo. But it's still going to be a headphone I'd consider more suitable for rock and electronic than for classical.

    One of the things I listen for when auditioning headphones or an amp is how well do the headphones seem to disappear. How well does it seem like the headphone driver and the headphone cup is not right on your ear. Some headphones are able to pull off a disappearing trick. While others couldn't disappear if their life depended on it. Portable headphones, especially closed portable headphones, are especially poor at pulling off any sort of disappearing trick. Full size open headphones have a better chance of pulling it off. The more that the headphones are able to disappear the less they sound like the stereotypical "headphone" sound. When the headphones are able to disappear you get a much more natural sound field around your head. The sound field is better able to fill in the center. It becomes less of the stereotypical "headphone" sound of blobs around your ears and a hole in the center of your head that never fills in.

    Classical music sounds better and more natural when the headphones are able to disappear. Even if they are only able to disappear just a little. Any amount of disappearing is better than none. What's amazing about the Pono combined with the right headphones is that it is able to pull off the disappearing trick better than almost any other headphone amp I've heard. And it's just a $400 portable. It pulls off the disappearing trick better than a lot of $3000+ dedicated headphone amps (those $3000 amps still have their advantages over the Pono, but being able to make the headphones disappear isn't one of them). Classical music sounds better and more natural when the headphones are able to disappear. It's like when a good speaker system is able to let the speakers disappear in the room. Classical music sounds better that way. Rock music can sound more energetic and better when the speakers are directional and don't disappear, but classical tends to do better when things disappear and you're left listening to the the soundscape and the music rather than sound and energy pumping at you. And that's sort of the distinction I make between rock listening and classical listening.

    So that's where I'm coming from in headphone recommendations and amp recommendations for classical music. I want the headphones to be able to disappear (even if just a little), I want the soundstage to not have a hole in the middle of my head, I want the soundstage to have depth and the headphones to present the layers that are in the recording, I want it to sound smooth and natural. That's a lofty goal, and it eliminates a lot of headphones and amps from my consideration.
     
  13. uncle b

    uncle b Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northville, MI USA
    I have been a long-time IEM-exclusive listener when it comes to my portable music. I don't like using portable amps, but also was looking to get a pair of full-size around-the-ear headphones. I was wondering if anyone has experience with any Grado models through the Pono (preferably un-amped).
     
  14. Barnabas Collins

    Barnabas Collins Senior Member

    Location:
    NH
    I just ordered the Pono Player from Amazon. I already have the HD800 headphones, but I'm a little unclear about what I need for balanced mode. Do I only need a cable, such as the Surf Cable P-06, to connect between the player and the 'phones to be in balanced mode? The drop down box on the Surf Cable link http://www.surfcables.com/products/sennheiser-hd800-compatible-cables?variant=1239542647 shows three different cables. Are the other two cables, other than the P-06, solely for connecting the headphones to a balanced preamp (which I have) or a balanced headphone amp (which I do not have)?
     
  15. Diver110

    Diver110 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Camas
    The more I think about HS's comments, the more sense they make to me. If you are going to have your computer with you anyway (I will), if high quality sound is important to you (it is to me), if portability is not critical (pretty irrelevant to me), and money is no object (well, can't say that) then why get a Pono? Isn't your money better invested in a headphone amp/ dac? Can't you store more complete music files on your computer rather than using some compression system which can lead to musical loss? Or am I missing something?
     
  16. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    You'll want the P-06 cable for the HD800 to do balanced headphone listening from the PonoPlayer.
    It's confusing though because he also lists a P-08 that is also a balanced pono to HD800 cable. I don't know what's the difference.
    I'd email him to find out what the difference is and which one to use.

    Balanced headphone connection options are confusing because there are so many different balanced headphone connections "standards". Dual 3-pin male XLR, 4-pin male XLR, TRRS 2.5mm, dual 3.5mm TRS (that the PonoPlayer uses), a little mini 4 pin jack that Ray Samuels used, and others. Here's a brief history about why the balanced headphone connections are a mess. Blame Tyll from Headroom.

    You won't be able to plug in balanced headphones directly to the balanced 3-pin XLR outputs on your pre-amp. That's the wrong kind of output, and the XLR jacks are the wrong sex. You need an actual headphone amplifier that has balanced headphone connection(s).
     
  17. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Transportable and full size gear that plugs into the mains for power has an advantage over portable battery powered gear in that the bigger gear will have more power available to use. Portable gear is always a compromise. They don't have as much power available to use, they have to be mindful of the power draw in order to save battery life, and they're generally not able to drive full size headphones as well as full size amps.

    The amp in the PonoPlayer can drive headphones like the Audeze, HD600, and HD800. But not as well as good full size amps. I can hear that my Audeze LCD-2 are underdriven by the Pono. Bass isn't as good as it could be. I can max the volume knob at times, especially with classical which sometimes has low recording levels. The HD600 can also max the volume dial on the Pono, especially with classical that has low recording levels. Not ideal. But the rest of the sound quality makes up for it, as long as you're OK with the volume not always being able to get as loud as you'd ultimately like.

    A transportable solution that uses a computer to play does offer more potential. The problem is I don't know what to recommend that sounds like the Pono, especially for classical. I'm looking. But it's going to take about 6 months for me to get and try the gear I have in mind. Some of it isn't even released yet. So I must wait. The sound that I'm after isn't easy to find. Not much gear does it. I've been on a quest for the past 5 years to try to find it. Finally it's starting to come together.

    What I think has the most potential to sound like the Pono is the Ayre Codex 1. Unfortunately the MSRP for the Ayre Codex 1 has gone up to $1799. Ouch. But worth it if it sounds like a better PonoPlayer and has more power to drive good headphones. It still hasn't been released yet. I don't know when it will be released. Should be soon.

    Other options I'm looking at are some of the Light Harmonic Geek DACs combined with a Cavalli Liquid Carbon amp ($699). Or some other transportable friendly DAC combined with the Liquid Carbon. I don't know how that will turn out. I'll find out around August when I get a Liquid Carbon amp.

    I also much prefer using a laptop to manage files and to find what to play vs. using a little screen on a portable player. The laptop makes it so much easier. And makes it possible for me to have my entire digital library with me (about 1TB worth, plus concert DVD rips, and other).
     
  18. Diver110

    Diver110 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Camas
    Thanks again, HS. You are a generous soul. I have always been a tube guy, so would lean to a tube headphone amp, though some of those don't look very transportable. You know what my biggest fear is? I will really like it, and then I'll be sitting on this very expensice component system I built up.....BTW, TAS has a review of a (very pricy) headphone amp in the current edition.
     
  19. Barnabas Collins

    Barnabas Collins Senior Member

    Location:
    NH
    I took your advice and emailed Surf Cables. FYI, this was their response:

    Sorry for the confusion, it's my fault. The p06 and p08 are the same, it was first called po6 then changed to p08 since it's for hd800. But I forgot to change it on the Web page in one spot. Will fix today.

    John


    Ordering the Po-8s for my HD800s today. Thanks for catching that, HS.
     
  20. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Nice! It will be interesting finding out how the Pono does with the HD800 balanced.
     
  21. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    I like tubes too. Unfortunately good tube amps are expensive. And not very transportable.
    A tube amp that I like is the Eddie Current Balancing Act. It has the type of sound I'm after. $4000 for the amp plus about $1000 in tubes (300B tubes are crazy).
    http://www.eddiecurrent.com/BA.html
    http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/eddie-current-balancing-act

    One day I'll have a full proper tube amp to play with. One day...

    For now I'm just looking for a certain style of sound with headphones. Whether that ends up being a tube amp, hybrid, or solid state is OK by me.
    I ended up with a hybrid. It has the sound I'm after. Unfortunately not a transportable design. So I'm on the hunt for a smaller transportable amp to compliment.

    I'm excited about the possibilities that are available now, or that will be available soon. My plan for a headphone system and the sound I'm after is starting to come together. After about 5 years of looking.

    It's a good time to be looking for headphones and amps. Good stuff is available in a variety of sound signatures and styles. The challenge is finding the sound style that suits you best and finding the amp that does that sound style.
     
  22. Diver110

    Diver110 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Camas
    Let us know what you find, HS. What kind of bass can a good system deliver? I would think that would be a short coming, getting deep bass--often a big part of symphonic work, but I am just speculating.
     
  23. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    For anyone considering balanced headphones for the Pono, I highly recommend the HiFiMan HE-400S. I got mine today with balanced cables from Surfcable, and I have not been able to stop listening to my Pono with it. I like it even more than the HD600 for the Pono. Very detailed, responsive, and lots of texture. I feel like I'm bathing in music. The HE-400S and Pono are currently giving me the best music playback of my life. I'm sure there are higher end cans that would be even better, but I can't afford them. :)

    Even if you don't get the 400S, if you have a Pono, you owe it to yourself to get balanced headphones for it. It's really something special, the kind of sound I've chased my whole life.
     
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  24. conjotter

    conjotter Forum Resident

    Could someone please recommend the best portable-size headphones for Pono that can be equipped with a balanced cable?

    I use my Pono just about every day -- commuting, biking, walking and at the gym.

    I have been using $50 E-Grados, which sound pretty good, but I would love to get some better cans where I could listen in balanced mode.

    Thanks!
     
  25. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    The Oppo PM-3 is portable and can do balanced. SurfCables makes Pono balanced cables for them. They're pricey though ($400 for the headphones), but I can't think of a set of cans you can easily go balanced with that are less than $300 (before buying the balanced cable), and most of those are open back, so not portable.

    Trinity audio is also about to release the Atlas IEM's, which are balanced and they also will be offering a Pono cable for it. They're taking pre-orders now: http://www.trinityaudioengineering.com/products/trinity-atlas-hybrid-in-ear-sports-headphone

    Someone on the Pono forums ordered two of the Atlases from Kickstarter and is going to sell me one at the backer price. I'll report back on how they sound after I receive them.
     
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