Best sounding 12AX7A/ECC83 & 12AT7/ECC81 tubes? Telefunken, Amperex, Mullard?

Why ridicule something you obviously haven't laid ears to? I own a set and they sound great. And the box isn't really all that fancy. And NOS? Talk about ridiculous prices.....

 

In some sense I agree with you about the box - but I paid $85 for the pair and I did not think that was a "ridiculous" price.

 

Yeah, I'm very put off by the prices of some of these new production tubes. In truth I'm pretty put off by prices on high-demand NOS stuff too. I know what's driving the price on the NOS stuff -- supply and demand; it's almost more like a collectibles market and the high-demand stuff is getting well nigh impossible to find anymore. I'm not sure about the high prices on the new stuff -- does it really cost New Sensor so much more to make a Gold Lion KT77 such that they charge more than twice as much for it vs. an EH EL34? A $75 pair of new 12ax7s from Psvane? Or worse, $75 a piece for a quad of KT88 "treasures"? Is that pricing determined on a cost plus basis relative to say what it costs Shuguang to make one tube vs another? Or is it just a tarted up price based on the fact that audiophiles are willing to pay huge prices for old production stuff?

With things like 12ax7 there are still so many good, affordable pulls on the market, and the tubes last in use for so long, that people have their choice. If you can afford one of these pricey Chinese 12ax7s you can afford good used pulls and you can compare. I also think there are really good sounding cheap new production tubes -- like the New Sensor Tung Sol 12ax7s and the Sovtek 12ax7LPS. I don't think you have to spend a lot to get good sounding twin triode preamp tubes.

With output tubes, which you wind up needing to change relatively often anyway, it's getting really hard to get good used pulls, and NOS is crazy expensive for the high demand stuff, so if I have to pay more for good new production QC, well, then I'm kind of over a barrel. But at a certain point I start to resist that. I bought a quad of New Sensor KT77's recently. It's a good sounding tube and it seems really well made and stable (though only time will really tell), but at $200 for a quad vs. $80 for a quad of EH 6CA7s made by the same company in the same factory, I'm right at the edge of my willingness to spend more for the one vs. less for the other, especially if they don't last like say old Mullard EL34s do. Maybe, accounting for longevity, you're better off spending $800 on a quad of Mullard EL34s (if you can even find a ANOS matched quad anymore), if the Mullards last more than 4x as long.

Oh, and forget about using new production EL34s in old circuit designed that required the tubes to dissipate a lot of heat. When it comes to heat dissipation -- and as much as anything this may account for the superior longevity of old production tubes -- the new tubes are a joke vs. the old. I mean an EL34 is nominally a 25 watt tube; the old ones could easily be biased up to almost 90% of that at idle and run fine, the old ones were almost more like a 30 watt tube. Woe unto you if you try to push new production EL34 to dissipate that much heat. Now, maybe that's a design problem with the amps more than a problem with the tubes -- I mean we shouldn't expect all tubes to be operated beyond spec. But it does show how kind of overbuilt the old stuff was, and especially with respect to heat that makes a huge difference in tube life even if you're not pushing the tubes to their limit.

 

Mullard ECC83 (12AX7) Reissue vs Original – A Physical Comparison
http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/mullard-ecc83-12ax7-reissue-original-physical-comparison/

 

That's great. Thanks for posting. Ever saw that before. Dissecting the tubes seems to confirm what we know anecdotally from use -- the great old tubes were extremely well made with outstanding QC, the New Sensor "reissues" not so much.

 

Hi. Have you listened to the Psvane tubes?

 

No, I haven't, and I'm passing judgement on the sound quality of 'em, maybe they sound great. I've heard some very good sounding Chinese made tubes -- love the TAD 6L6GCs in my guitar amps. I'm just wondering if there's something about their production costs that results in such a high price at retail vs. other similar tubes coming from the same factory, or if it's just like the vintner who can't sell out his wine at $6 a bottle, but when he prices it at $35 everyone thinks it's higher quality and buys it up.

What we don't get a lot in audio, and especially with new tube production, is great transparency about design, materials, etc. We can open the lid on our amps and pres, but we don't crack open the tubes. So, New Sensor buys the Mullard name and puts out Mullard re-issue tubes but, as the link LazyOne posts shows, there really no effort by New Sensor to replicate the Mullard, its just a brand name.

 

I hear what you are saying but to be honest I don't care much about which materials were used. I do however care about the sound and it's fantastic, nothing like run of the mill Chineese tubes. I'm urging you to give them a listen. I'm convinced you'll be impressed.

 

I care about the price and the longevity, and I care about not overpaying for stuff.

Luckily I have a pretty substantial collection of old stock 12ax7s. Haven't had to buy a 12ax7 in years. So, I'm not in the market for new 12ax7s so
much.

Now, new EL34s, EL84s, 6V6s, 6L6s, etc, between my hifi and guitar gear I'm always in the market for new ones of these and since replacing them is not uncommon I'm interested in sonics, sure, but I'm not in the category of being concerned about sonics at any price, so price and longevity also matter to me. If I was a price-no-object buyer, heck, yeah, I'd try the Psvane 6CA7s at $250 a quad; the New Sensor KT77s at $200 a quad; some Mullard XF1s (which I have a quad of that's getting very long in the tooth) at whatever that would cost today, $800? a grand?; and I wouldn't worry about needing to replace them. But I can't spend $1500 or $2000 trying out different tubes and not worrying about how long they'll last, and do that for different amps that use different tubes.

But I do know those Mullards will last a long dang time even if you push 'em past what they're spec'ed to handle.

 

Just a link to my Tele 12AX7 's for sale in the hardware classifieds...

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/telefunken-smooth-plate-12ax7s.406354/

 

One thing I will say for one set of relatively expensive new production tubes -- the New Sensor Gold Lion KT77's are perhaps the quietest in terms of self noise tubes, new or old, of the EL34/6CA7/KT77 family I've used, which is a real plus. No measurements, just listening but seems to be less apparent hiss, more low level detail. I certainly would love to live in a world where new production tubes are as good as old production tubes, especially if it could be done at a relatively affordable price.

 

out of the current production the Gold Lion 12AX7's sound significantly better than any of the other brands I've tried (JJ, Tung Sol, new production Mullard, Electro Harmonix, Sovtek).

punchier, more dynamic, a broader EQ range. they cost more but im happy to pay the premium.

 

The sound from these Chinese tubes in a fancy Box is merely a preference and if you like them that's great.

The ones I have heard [Shuguang Treasure] didn't impress me as in my circuit they sounded lifeless / sterile.

Moreover, their reliability is as yet untested and it would be a very ambitious to think that they will be going strong in 50 years time like many of the valves from the 50's and 60's still are.

Hence, when these Chinese tubes have 50 years and 10000 hrs under their belts I will change my evaluation of them.

 

I'll keep you updated. Check these pages in about 50 years.

 

I wouldn't pay $100 for a pair of Chinese 12ax7's regardless of how great they may sound just on principle.

People are paying inflated prices for the "artisan" tubes yet the build quality of them is so inferior to equivilant NOS tubes that were cranked out by the millions per year.

 

Have you held the Psvane's in your hand? Have you looked closely at them, judging the build quality? It's all good to have principles, but I do think these Psvane's are taking a lot of punches from folks who haven't heard nor seen a set at all. You may all be right concerning the longvidity. Time will tell. As for me, a hundred bucks well spent.

 

I have held them in my hand, listened to them as well, on loan from an enthusiastic friend. I preferred my smooth plate Telefunkens that I paid $50 each for by a wide margin. They are nice tubes however, just not $50 nice.

 

Ok then. Perhaps I should try out a Telefunken set one day. A lot of poeple rave about them.

 

Good post, good questions. Indeed, supply and demand. I bought less than 10 years ago Svetlana KT88 "C" quad set for ca. 120 € and after the SED fire & the production line shutdown on St. Petersburg for ca. 250 € (pretty close to one of the last "C" sets). However, the genuine Svetlana's are robust, long-life tubes: Chinese KT88's lasted perhaps 200 hours, slightly longer, but Svetlana's just keep on going. Difficult to estimate, but I'd guess they'd be in use for closer to 1000 hours, perhaps 800 hours today. A lot longer than the Chinese "original" tubes.

 

Being a tube noob, do the sound characteristics of a given tube apply for each application- power amp, pre amp, phono pre, gain section, buffer section, etc. - Or is it important to make / qualify the application distinction when talking about how they sound?

 

As a first time tube user I am absolutely digging the effects on the sound of my system, even if limited to just 2 12AX7s in the output buffer of my phono stage. I enjoy the idea of swapping out new and NOS tubes until I find the sound I am after.
As long as they are not manufactured with child labor I do not care where or when they were made or how much they cost (within reason). Since the rest of my system is stable, tube swapping is a fun, relatively inexpensive hobby, especially since I only need (2)!
Peace and keep the discussion rolling.

 

My experience is that they have some defining characteristics, but will sound different in different circuits. You can get a good idea from listening to other opinions.

 

Absolutely. I have found this to be the case with EL34 tubes as well.

 

Not all NOS tubes have gone into the price stratosphere. Do a search - for $45 apiece I've got a trio of GE 6681s back in Classifieds (the 6681 is a 12AX7 that's a ruggedized design for mobile communicaion usage, these are all burned in and have very closely matched sections per my B&K tester); for the price of some new production tubes in a fancy package you could buy a pair of those 6681s and know you're going to get plenty of life out of them. I've offered pairs of Mullards and Phillips Holland production EL34/6CA7s for $220 a set - nobody here picked them up, so I put them on Ebay and sold them within a week. I try and sell things here first so folks have a shot at tubes from the Golden Age of production from USA and European manufacturers that aren't priced in the stratosphere, but sometimes they linger here too long and I sell them on Ebay.

 

NOS AWA Super Radiotron 12AU7's can be had for $30 each or less - They came out of the Mullard Factory in Australia [AWV at Ashfield] and look and sound like a Mullard.
NOS Philips miniwatt 12au7's can also be had for similar prices for the late 60's early 70's issues. Not quite as good as the 50's/ early 60's types but a mile ahead of the curent chinese stuff with respect to reliability and build quality.