Best Sounding digital Beatles singles comp?

Has someone tried the original 3 inch CD singles,are they the same mastering as the 5 inch box set of singles?

JF

 

I tested out the sound quality of She Loves You and I'll Get You from the Paster Maters I CD. After listening to the left and right channels separately, the sound quality just isn't much better than not quite mono track was to begin with. Both of those two sound better on the CD singles.

 

Thanks to forum member VeeDub, who pointed out that the versions of Love Me Do and P.S. I Love You on the EP box are not the correct single masters. I wrongly stated that they were, and listed them as my preferred sources. In fact, as SH has said, the versions of LMD/PSILY included on the PPM album were "crappy dubs" (his term) with added compression and echo. (The same is the case with Please Please Me/ Ask Me Why.) These album versions were mistakenly used on the CD singles box, and they are also the EP versions found in the EP box.

In fact, the correct single masters for LMD/PSILY have never been issued in digital form. The only way to get them is on the vinyl 45. So my listing for the first two singles should read as follows:

Ebbetts' needle drop uses the first pressing, Ringo-on-drums version of LMD. If you want the more common Andy White-on-drums version, you have no choice but to make your own needle drop.

BTW, tonight I compared the EP box version of PSILY with Ebbetts' needle drop and with my own early-'80s picture disc 45. The EP version does indeed seem to be the "crappy dub" produced for the PPM album. It's a piece of muddled murk compared to the 45, which sounds beautifully clear by comparison.

 

Crappy dub, yes...

But I don't think Steve has ever said that "Love Me Do" and "P.S. I Love You" on the "Please Please Me" album suffer from added compression and echo.

It is my understanding that the correct tape was used for "Love Me Do" on the "1" compilation.

However they're are many here who have reservations about that particular CD!

 

One question: If you use a program (I use audacity) to copy one out of phase stereo channel in the other in order to have a clear mono signal do you lose information? I mean I have to convert the wav.file first into a mp3-file and than I can copy the channel and after that I convert the new file into a wav-file again... Or do you guys use programs that don't convert the wav-file first into a mp3-file? Just wondering...

 

I have AUDACITY too and I can burn from WAV.

I think it is longer with MP3.

I may be wrong I'll check when at home.

 

I'm not familiar with Audacity but have used many other wav editing software. Why would you have to convert wav to MP3 to wav? You'll lose information for sure with that conversion. Most, if not all, wav editors allow you to edit the wav and then reburn. You shouldn't have to convert to MP3 and back again to do some editing.

Take care,
Brett

 

This thread has been a very intersting read, but a tad confusing at times.

If I understand the Ringo vs Andy White "Love Me Do", in order to get a decent mono copy of "Love Me Do" version 1, I need to record a needle drop of the Ringo version, not the Andy White version (2) which is readlily available on the CD EP box set.

Also Steve has previously mentioned to us NOT to copy one channel of a mono needle drop into both channels as this can cause problems. (I'll try and find the original quote and post it later.)

 

Here's a quote from Steve about LMD/PSILY. It's from this thread: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15516

So those four sides (i.e., The Beatles' first two singles) are incorrect everywhere except for the 45 RPM singles (and LMD [Andy White version] on the 1 CD, reportedly).

 

That's correct. According to Steve, the original mono single master for LMD with Ringo on drums was "razored" when they put out the Andy White version. The Ringo on drums version on Past Masters is a needle drop.

The Andy White version is available on the EP box set, but they didn't use the correct single master. They used the album version (the "crappy dub" with extra echo; see above). If you want to hear the correct single master of the Andy White version, you'll need a needle drop (or the 1 album, reportedly).

On the contrary. It was from Steve that I learned to use a Y cable to sum L+R channels when playing back mono vinyl. What you don't want to do is sum stereo channels. What you also don't want to do is to sum L + R mono channels that are out of phase.

As for needle drops, Steve has said that he doesn't do them. I don't recall seeing any advice from him on this subject. But generally speaking, when doing a mono needle drop, you want to keep it in mono. You can do this by summing the channels with a Y cable when transferring, or by picking the better channel and using it. This advice comes from Steve.

In the digital realm, you likewise want to keep both mono channels identical. You can do this by picking one channel and duplicating it, or by exporting one channel into a mono sound file and using that. The result is the same.

 

Brett is correct. There is no need to convert to MP3 before you can edit the WAV file. You might have to check some of your Preferences in Audacity to make sure you can work with WAV. I'm not using Audacity anymore, so I can't check to see exactly how to do it.

There's some good info on Audacity available online. Check out the Audacity Wiki:
http://audacityteam.org/wiki/

 

I accept that Steve wrote this, but don't forget before the Please Please Me album there was no Andy White version of "Love Me Do". It doesn't seem right that EMI would prepare an Andy White version and then specifically add extra echo and compression to just the album version.

I agree with Steve about the "Please Please Me/Ask Me Why" single.

I agree that "Love Me Do" and "P.S. I Love You" on the album are from "crappy dubs", but I disagree with Steve about "Love Me Do/P.S. I Love You" having extra echo on the album.

I do bow to Steve's judgement about compression, because of the "Die Beatles" story.

Here's what he said...

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=16738&page=2&pp=20&highlight=compression

So this is maybe where the story about extra echo on "Love Me Do/P,S, I Love You" came from.

However, as we all know now they did add a ton of extra echo to "Ask Me Why".

 

Good point, but then why would this be done to PPM & AMW, and not LMD & PSILY? Weren't they going for consistency with the album's sound?

At the very least, it would appear that LMD/PSILY has "strong" variations in its end result (45, LPs, various CDs) thanks to compression and mastering (if not echo).

 

Yeah, I don't have the answers about different masterings of LMD/PSILY; I was just repeating what Steve said. If I can summarize, I think we know for sure that:

1. The album masters of LMD/PSILY are not the same as the single masters; they're "crappy" dubs (Steve's words), possibly with added compression and/or echo.

2. The LP, EP, CD singles box, and CD EP box all use the album masters.

3. The only way to hear LMD with Ringo on drums is to get the 45, or Past Masters (which uses a needle drop of the 45).

4. The only way to hear the single master of LMD with Andy White on drums is to get the 45, or (reportedly) the 1 CD.

5. The only way to hear the single master of PSILY is to get the 45.

All else is speculation.

I can tell you that the 45 of PSILY (and Dr. Ebbetts' needle drop made from it) sounds a lot better than the version on the EP box. I know which one I'm going to use!

 

Time to compare the 45 and the album! Do you have both? Can you listen and report your conclusions here?

 

I do... although I don't possess a 60's pressing, I do have a 76 and 82 pressing.

I'll compare it to the 80's mono "Please Please Me" album...

I'll report back later.

 

That's actually not correct. According to Lewisohn the mono mix of the Andy White Love Me Do was made the same day it was recorded on 11 Sep 1962. That probably explains the confusion between the two tracks, since a mono master existed of both versions in early 1963 having been made a week apart a few months earlier. Also you have to consider how the LP master was prepared. They didn't prepare masters of individual tracks and then add compression to each individual track and asemble it all together. What they did is, after the individual song mixes are prepared, they were all dubbed to tape to create an album master and at that time compression was added to all the songs one by one as the tape is running. So it is conceivable that LMD and PSILY were subject to some extra echo processing before the album master was created. What I don't know is what master they ended up using for the LMD single after 1963.

 

Thanks for this link I've been correcting the phase on Beatle singles this evening, and this software is fantastic.
Once I've finished I'm going to check any Frank Sinatra mono I have for out of phase.

Thanks again, suberb free software

 

You're welcome, John!

 

OK. I just compared my early '80s picture disc 45 with my Japanese 82 red mono PPM. Not original pressings, but made using the single and album masters, respectively. No question the 45 is better. The album version sounds compressed and muddy by comparison. I couldn't tell if there was any additional echo. But compression, definitely, and a later-gen tape, too.

Dr. Ebbetts didn't make a needle drop of the Andy White version, so if I want to include it on my comp, my choices are to make my own needle drop or to use the version off the 1 CD.

LATER. I picked up a copy of 1 on my way home from work. The version on 1 definitely sounds like the 45 version, not the album version. Clear and dynamic. Also, I thought the sound wasn't bad at all! Maybe a little NR was used -- I couldn't tell for sure -- but if so it was used very lightly. And the sound wasn't at all compressed.

STILL LATER. Love Me Do from the 1 CD passes the cancellation test. (I expected it to, based on the sound.) It's true mono.

My conclusion: If you can pick up 1 cheap, do so. It's worth it for the correct version of LMD. (You don't have to listen to the rest of it!)

 

Here's the revised list of the first four sides, with correct sources for each:

*1a. Love Me Do (Ringo on drums). Past Masters (but it's a needle drop).
1b. Love Me Do (Andy White on drums). 1 (true mono) is the only digital source for the correct single master. All other digital sources (PPM, singles box, EP box) use the inferior album master.
*2. P.S. I Love You. No digital source for the correct single master.
*3. Please Please Me. No digital source for the correct single master.
*4. Ask Me Why. No digital source for the correct single master.
*Alternative source: Dr. Ebbetts' needle drop.

I agree with Steve: it's scandalous that there has never been a proper CD issue of PSILY, PPM, or AMW!!!

 

And here are the sources I decided to use for the first CD of my comp. As explained above, the CD singles box uses the wrong sources for the first two singles. For each side, I list the alternate source I picked.

The rest of the singles come from the CD singles box, and are phase-corrected. L or R indicates which channel I picked to duplicate. In most cases the difference is extremely subtle, if it exists at all. Nevertheless, in each case one channel seemed to me slightly clearer and more dynamic than the other. (NOTE: She Loves You/I'll Get You is in true mono. It doesn't need to be fixed.)

The most difficult cases were Eleanor Rigby and Yellow Submarine. In those cases, each channel actually has a different tonal balance! In Rigby, the R channel is more midrangey, with Paul's vocal more prominent, whereas the L channel has the vocal more recessed, with more separation in the string quartet. In YS, the L channel was the more midrangey one, with the R channel having more top (e.g., clearer percussion). Those two are really a matter of taste.

I Feel Fine is another case where the tonal balance differs between L and R channels. (See notes below.) My theory is that the tracks where the balance differs most between channels are the tracks that are most out of phase. I can only guess this has something to do with the way the mono tape passed over the two differently aligned stereo heads.

1. Love Me Do (Andy White on drums version) - Beatles 1.
2. P.S. I Love You - Dr. Ebbetts' needle drop.
3. Please Please Me - Dr. Ebbetts' needle drop.
4. Ask Me Why - Dr. Ebbetts' needle drop.
5. From Me To You - L
6. Thank You Girl - L
7. She Loves You - true mono
8. I'll Get You - true mono
9. I Want to Hold Your Hand - R
10. This Boy - R
11. Can't Buy Me Love - R
12. You Can't Do That - R
13. A Hard Day's Night - L
14. Things We Said Today - L
15. I Feel Fine - R. Interestingly, forum member another side disagrees with me on this one. In the earlier thread, he said: "After listening it for a bit. I hear some incongruencies in the right channel track that I don't hear on the left channel. For example when Lennon sings : "Baby's good to me, you know she's happy as can be", on "me" and "be" I hear a small amount of distortion on those syllables on the right channel track. Also the cymbals sound a bit cleaner on the left channel."

Sure enough, in this case the R channel is the more distorted, midrangey one, and the L channel has a more recessed midrange and more treble, with less distortion. (My wife called it "tinny".) Which is more accurate? Who knows? I found the R channel more punchy, so I used it. YMMV!

16. She's A Woman - R
17. Ticket To Ride - R
18. Yes It Is - R
19. Help! - L
20. I'm Down - R
21. We Can Work It Out - L
22. Day Tripper - R
23. Paperback Writer - R
24. Rain - R
25. Eleanor Rigby - R
26. Yellow Submarine - R

My L/R comparisons were pretty brief, usually no more than the first 30-60 seconds of each channel, just to get an idea of the sound. Probably it would be better to listen to each one more extensively. If you have the time, be my guest! Do your own comparisons and let us know what you think.

 

RZangpo2 and everyone else in this thread, thanks for your careful analysis of these tracks. You guys are amazing!

I've got to work on my own compilation now. Can I safely assume that the colored vinyl 45s that came out in the 90s are from digital masters?

 

I believe all vinyl that came out after the digital mastering in 1987 was from the digital masters.

 

Re: tonal differences between channels. Unfortunately, I don't have 45s of the sides in question (I Feel Fine, Yellow Submarine, Eleanor Rigby). I did compare Dr. Ebbetts' needle drops, though. In all three cases, his needle drop resembles the channel that is brighter and has more recessed vocals: IFF - L, Rigby - L, YS - R. However, I find all his needle drops of the singles to be on the bright side.

It may be that in these cases, neither L nor R channel is identical to the original 45; both may depart from the original sound in opposite directions (too midrangey vs. too bright, respectively).