Best soundstage other than Sennheiser HD 800s

Try the SPL Phonitor.

 

Not necessarily. But tubes certainly can help. Although achieving the exact sound that you are after often requires a bit of tube rolling.

 

Have you been able to compare the HE1000 V1 and the V2? Do they both have the same headstage/soundstage shape and size?

I tried a HE1000 V1 at a meet. The headstage was wide, but no depth in the very center. Headstage was almost like a sideways figure 8. I was using my Cavalli Liquid Fire amp when testing the HE1000. The Liquid Fire is very capable of getting headphones to have depth in the center that pops out in front of your head. But with the HE1000 that depth didn't happen. I don't know if it was that particular HE1000 that was like that or if all are like that. And don't know if the V2 version changes that. Other than that weird headstage, I remember the sound quality being very good.

 

I happen to own a set of HD424 and to put it bluntly: They are not very good headphones compared to what is available now and the disappointment will hit way before you reach the comparison with the HD600/650. They are very cool looking though.

 

I haven't tried any of the vintage Sennheisers. I don't know how they compare to modern mid-fi Senns. They're certainly not going to compare to the HD650.

 

With open backed headphones, I really think Grado nailed it. Their high end headphones are quite incredible.
Still made in USA too.

 

Which ones?

 

Any of the Reference or Statement range is excellent, I personally love the GS1oooe, but it is of course very personal, at least
try to give them a listen, I prefer mine to HD800, Audeze LCD and many others.

The GS1000e sounds very flat to me, yet incredibly (understatement) detailed, so always thought Hoffmanites would like them. They are the ONLY headphone I can mix well on with my own music.
Stax electrostatics are also amazing, pricey and a bit of a PITA to use but sound is sublime.
If deep, pumping bass is what you seek ignore my recommendations!

 

I love my Grados but soundstage isn't one of their strengths.

 

Have and love my GS 1000e and especially my PS 1000. Haven’t heard the new flagship PS 2000.

 

Thanks fellas!
I have HD-420-SL as a going away present from my radio gig, and have discovered these are not created equally. My original pair have some wear on the ear pads, so I purchased another from eBay, nice pads, but lacking the lowest bass octave and upper harmonics, lackluster. The difference is like night and day! ... Was just curious!

 

Excellent tube amps and hybrid tube amps are able to do more headstage depth and width than solid state. Good excellent tube sound is just able to bring out more depth and width and openness than even the best solid state headphone amps that I've heard. I've heard some expensive solid state headphone amps and they just do not compete with headstage depth and width of the good tube amps that I like. If you listen to headphones and want a more open sound with out of your head soundstage depth and width you're going to find yourself gravitating to tubes. And if you're after that sort of out of your head soundstage depth and width you're going to have to be very selective in the tube gear you choose. Not all tube headphone gear does that sort of sound. In fact, only a minority does.

The really neat thing about the HD800 is that it is able to do a deep and wide and open headstage even with solid state amps that are otherwise unable to deliver that same headstage experience with other headphones. The HD800 are really special in being able to present an out of your head headstage even when used with solid state gear that would present a flat and in your head experience with other headphones. However, play the HD800 with an exceptional tube amp and you'll find that the HD800 can do even better bigger deep wider headstage, and those other headphones can begin to catch up. So yeah, in my opinion you do need tubes with headphones if you are after out of your head headstage, and you need to be careful about which tube amp you choose because not all tube gear does that sort of headstage.

If you want to stay with the solid state style of sound an potentially very good option would be the Smyth Realiser A16 once it is available. It will be around $2K for the amp and DSP system. The A16 system should be able to do an out of your head headstage with many other headphones other than just the HD800. The disadvantage with the A16 style solution is that everything you listen to will be going through additional DSP digital processing. Even if you listen to an analog source (like a turntable) that analog source is going to have to be converted to digital and go through DSP processing. Not an ideal solution for analog diehards. But possibly the best solution if you want an HD800 style headstage with other headphones. I'm actually considering adding a Smyth Realiser A16 to my system. I already have hybrid tube amps that do a good headstage, but adding an A16 to the mix would give me an option for listening to a headstage that is bigger deeper different.

 

60s and 70s era recordings can be hard panned style stereo. Where some instruments are all on the left channel and other instruments all on the right. Especially the 60s. Less so in the 70s. That style of stereo is difficult on headphones. That style of stereo works better if processed through some sort of cross-feed that blends some of the right and left channels. Both the Smyth Realiser A16 and the Waves Nx plugin do an advanced form of virtual speaker style of crossfeed. That style of crossfeed is going to make those recordings sound better on headphones than any fancy tube amp. That's even more of a reason to look at a headphone system built around the Realiser A16 or a computer based system using the Waves Nx plugin.

 

Do you remember offhand a 70's record with such channel separation? I'd be interested to check and try because I can't remember having heard something like what you describe.

 

Most recordings stopped doing the hard panning in the 70s. But there still are a few that use hard panning for an effect. Some Queen songs as an example.

 

Yes, a hard pan mix thru headphones can be unpleasant. The reason for this (primary reason) one ear alters pitch vs using two ears. So, let's say we have vocal on the Rt channel. The right ear tends to bend the pitch, a decrease in pitch in the treble frequencies as relative to volume increase. Conversely bass will be sharped relative to volume increase. Pitch perception gets all messed up. (of course the headphones reproduce true pitch but we may not hear it that way)

Headphones isolate each ear, speakers don't.

Listening through speakers, pitch shift doesn't occur, as the left ear receives some sound energy from the right channel speaker, directed to the right ear. (interaural crosstalk) It takes only very low level sound energy to the opposite ear to hear true pitch... just a weird human psychoacoustic phenomenon.

The Beatles early stereo mixes in "wide stereo" often pan a small amount of reverb, delayed, to the opposite channel. So, only this small amount of reverberation stabilizes pitch, so that headphone listening of these mixes sounds pretty good, actually. If hard panned 100% (or very nearly so) headphone listening can be practically unbearable.

There will be certain exceptions, such as a hard panned guitar solo.. when accompanied by other guitars on the opposite channel of similar spectrum.. all will be civil thru headphones. It all depends on the mix.

 

Panning that doesn't have bleed through or ambiance to the other channel not only sounds tonally wrong, but also physically wrong. Having all that sound pressure and sound source in one ear without hearing it properly in the other ear is unnatural and your brain will tell you so. You also lose soundstage depth when you only hear a sound in one ear. You need two ears to hear depth and distance in sound. If the sound is only heard by one ear there is no depth. A bit of faked reverb of that channel played in the other ear can kinda fake it and trick the ears to hearing a little bit of depth in a recording like that. But it's fake and doesn't sound natural.

Close mic'd stereo recordings can also sound odd and way too close when listened to with headphones. For example, close mic'd string quartet recordings. When you listen on headphones to a string quartet recording that has been recorded that way it is as if you are right there where the microphones are. Really close. Unnaturally close. It's quite odd. All the violin is in the left ear. All the cello is in the right ear. There is some bleed through to the other channel because the stereo mic setups are going to pick up some sound from the other side. But what you end up hearing on headphones is like your head is right there where the microphone array is. I want to hear a string quartet like I'm in the front, second, or third row of the audience. I don't want to be literally standing there on stage right at their feet. So often with string quartet recordings (and other similar close mic'd recordings like some jazz recordings) I'll use the Waves Nx plugin to add some virtual speaker style crossfeed. That ends up sounding more natural and puts me out in the audience instead of right there on stage. The Smyth Realiser would also do a similar style of virtual speaker crossfeed for headphones. If you listen on headphones you will find some recordings where you will want (almost need) to use a crossfeed like Waves Nx or the Smyth Realiser. 60s rock recordings and jazz recordings would also be in that category.