Best Way to Convert SACDs?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by MrEWhite, Oct 11, 2018.

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  1. pscreed

    pscreed Upstanding Member

    Location:
    Land of the Free
    Yeah it was just a question thanks guys. I’ve ripped hundreds of my SACDs using my Oppo 105 and sacd_extract. On Linux, Mac, and Windows... I don’t have a horse in that race. Just checking if the OP had some new way to do this, or if perhaps there was some confusion there.

    Thanks for weighing in that’s what makes this such a great hobby. Appreciate your input.
     
    tmtomh and elvisizer like this.
  2. elvisizer

    elvisizer Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Jose
    Just personal preference- TraX is faster than iso2dsd when extracting tracks because it’s multithreaded, it does a good job of adding album artwork, and I can queue up multiple iso’s for extraction.
     
  3. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    Where is the metadata being stored for these files? Is it contained inside of the files themselves (like it is with FLAC), or it is handled by a feature inside of program like JRiver or Roon?
     
  4. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    That depends on the format. DSF is like FLAC, and stores the metadata in the file. DFF does not support metadata, but some programs can make it seem that way, which is why everyone should be using DSF.
     
  5. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    Correct me if I'm misremembering here, but isn't DFF the format which features lossless compression, where as DSF does not?
     
  6. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Despite having a 4 byte chunk to indicate audio data type, only raw DSD is specified for DSF:

    https://dsd-guide.com/sites/default/files/white-papers/DSFFileFormatSpec_E.pdf

    No idea what the guys in Japan were thinking when they did that.

    DFF supports both raw DSD and DST-encoded DSD: http://www.sonicstudio.com/pdf/dsd/DSDIFF_1.5_Spec.pdf

    DFF was created for the distribution of Edit Masters between studios and disc production.
     
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  7. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    It really seems like they blew-it when they didn't include metdata inside of the DFF standard.
     
  8. Jevon

    Jevon New Member

    Location:
    UK
    I've just purchased Trax, fairly straight forward to use and great for extracting separate iso tracks and editing metadata. But one thing has puzzled me regarding the DSF / DFF outputs.

    For example, I have an iso file that is 3.56gb in size (with stereo & 5.1 tracks).
    When I convert to DSF, the total of the new files equate to 8.25gb in size (that's more than double the original iso)!
    When I convert DFF (with encoding option 'the same as source'), the total file sizes equate to 3.56gb (exactly the same as the iso).

    I'm a bit of a novice in the DSD field, but I was under the impression DSF and DFF were essentially the same in quality and file size..?

    Has any one else used Trax and noticed this? If the above is correct that DSF is larger than DFF, do I have to sacrifice double the hard disk space with DSF files for the ability to embed metadata?

    OR is the solution to convert to DFF and then use a different software (Trax does not have this ability) to convert DFF to DSF ?
     
  9. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    What you are seeing is the difference between raw DSD file size and DST-encoded DSD file size. DST is the lossless encoding method developed by Fons Breukers and his team at Philips Research, Eindhoven specifically for SACD.

    As an image of the disc, the ISO file is encoded in DST in order to make both the stereo and M-ch programs fit within the 4.7 GB DVD single layer specification (I am only talking about the hybrid case here, but dual SACD layer discs are also possible, but they have no CD layer in them). If you decode with the 'same as source' option, the DST-encoded data gets written into the DFF file, and you should expect the size to be roughly the same. If you decode to raw DSD, the size will increase depending on the lossless compression ratio, which depends on the spectral content of the music (the more 'white' the spectrum [think compressed pop/rock], the smaller the compression ratio).

    In order to combine tagging with losslessly compressed DSD file size, take a look at Forum member Archimago's blog post on the topic:

    Archimago's Musings: MUSINGS: On DSD, tagging, compression and conversion... Time for WavPack 5.
     
  10. Jevon

    Jevon New Member

    Location:
    UK
    Thank you - that's been very helpful and enlightening. I never even paused to consider that the SACD's were compressed!

    My computers are able to play all of the DFF's and DFS's.
    I had read that you couldn't embed metadata in DFF's, but in Audirvana, I'm able to see the metadata I embed in the DFF's (via TraX) although my DAPs and other portable devices won't play or recognise these DFF files (interestingly, the cover artwork is displayed on some of them).

    There seems to be a lack of a universal standard and clarity regarding 'DSD'... but basically it looks like I'm going to have to opt for the 'safer' (and larger) DSF format.
    I've done 99% of my CD's, just hope that my new 4tb hard drives are going to be sufficient capacity once I get into digitising my SACD's and remaining music collection!

    Alternatively, I could do FLAC conversions. Even at 0 FLAC compression, I would be saving 40+% of HD space (compared to DSF).
    I noticed the OP (MrEWhite) extracts to FLAC. I've tested this option and I'm happy that multichannel works with flac, but what am I losing out on (sonically) in comparison to DSF?
    And what sample rate should the output be for FLAC ; 44.1, 88.2, 96, 192?? ...16 vs 24 bit?

    Sorry for these novice questions - but I feel like I've just opened a can of worms and I can't screw the lid back on...
     
  11. Jevon

    Jevon New Member

    Location:
    UK
    Edit: No worries, think I've concluded DSF > Flac should be at 24/88.2
     
  12. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    The OP is first converting the DSD source to PCM, and then using FLAC to save space!

    There have been reports of members using FLAC to get DSD data through 'PCM pipes' (systems that do not natively support DSD), but I don't recall anyone mentioning using FLAC to get around the tagging and space issues with DSD. Archimago is a switched on guy, and his suggested solution does not involve FLAC.
     
  13. MrEWhite

    MrEWhite Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    United States
    I just use FLAC to play in programs other than foobar (such as the Steam Overlay music player).
     
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