Better Call Saul - Season Three Discussion

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by stereoptic, Jan 16, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Man, that was a great scene.
     
  2. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    I don't think Jimmy's film vernacular is off-putting at all. He has idiosyncrasies, and he has a pretty deep well of knowledge that leads to sometimes obscure references. I could totally picture Jimmy at some point in his life spending some short amount of time getting really absorbed into filmmaking to the point of knowing some of the terminology. We still don't know *all* of his back story; maybe he worked on a crew shooting a show or commercials as some fly-by-night quickie job years ago. Or he just read a bunch of books on the subject.

    But I love all of the weird lingo, like when he said "Check the gate!" I love that he's wearing a Panavision baseball cap. I loved the joke about the guy at the TV station telling him he'd never seen that many star wipes before. In an earlier episode, he references Mike's photos and having to teach him the "rule of thirds."

    I love all of his weird references. In one of his early BB scenes, he references DB Cooper when Walt walks into his office.
     
    FVDnz, somnar, Vidiot and 5 others like this.
  3. Hot Ptah

    Hot Ptah Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    I am not sure that Mesa Verde will make a claim against HHM. I would think that a bank would not want the publicity which could come out of the process.
     
    Lonson likes this.
  4. artfromtex

    artfromtex Honky Tonkin' Metal-Head

    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    I agree completely. Jimmy is full of trivial knowledge. I liked the added touch of the Pana-Vision hat.
     
    wavethatflag likes this.
  5. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    And what would their claim be? I guess they'd show how much money they lost (and/or had to put out) due to the delay caused by Chuck's snafu (aka Jimmy's sabotage). But they also established in a subsequent episode that Kim got the new hearing date for Mesa Verde moved up earlier than the rescheduled date had been set for.

    So I'm not sure how much tangible damages Mesa Verde could show. That, coupled with indeed some bad publicity, not to mention Paige at Mesa Verde having to at least *wonder* if maybe Jimmy did sabotage Chuck, would suggest to me that Mesa Verde suing HHM is unlikely.
     
    Gems-A-Bems likes this.
  6. George P

    George P Notable Member

    Location:
    NYC
    And lets not forget his knowledge about how to vacuum, shared with the porter at Davis and Main.
     
    rburly and Hot Ptah like this.
  7. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Yeah, Mesa Verde doesn't need to go after HHM for Chuck to get screwed by the insurance company over this. Either way I'm looking forward to where the plot takes us.

    Yes, Jimmy fancies himself a jack of all trades, and would often lecture Walt about marketing, distribution and other issues you wouldn't expect from legal counsel. But Walt himself would launch into marketing lingo. Aside from working in video production (obviously), one of the creators or writers must have worked in a marketing department and just couldn't help but inject that into the script, despite it not being something the characters would say. This has always been one of my complaints about the writing. Odenkirk pulls it off and always manages to stay in character, which is one of the reasons I like this show better than BB.

    One of the reasons I am starting to have a real aversion to scenes with her is that she is not being realistically written. What kind of lawyer feels guilt about holding on to a client she earned by working cold calls to a personal acquaintance? It just doesn't make any sense. Likewise, she knows Jimmy's strengths and weaknesses and we are back to square one with how she feels about it. There just isn't any development. I'm wondering why we are being subjected to these scenes. It's boring. The apology scene at Mesa Verde was a total snoozefest. She feels bad for Chuck now. That's just great. Sure, it puts her at odds with Jimmy, but she has always been a bit at odds with him, always placed her integrity and her career higher than his. As we discussed in an earlier post this is a bit creepy because it mirrors Chuck's treatment of Jimmy.
     
    JFS3 likes this.
  8. questrider

    questrider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Middle, Nowhere
    I also found it funny after he yelled, "Cut!" he said, "Check the gate," to the crew. Especially considering they're shooting on videotape!
     
    Vidiot and jon9091 like this.
  9. Gems-A-Bems

    Gems-A-Bems Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Duke City
    Except it is something a character would say, because a character did say it last season. That's where Jimmy picked it up from.

    Contrary to being a problem with the writing, it's one of the things that shows how good the writing is.
     
    Tord, somnar, EVOLVIST and 4 others like this.
  10. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    The video references (rule of thirds, moire, last look, etc) are also there to help bring us into the later Saul era where Saul's ads are a big part of what he does and how he gets his name out there to get his practice going. This show doesn't allow for the kind of writing where someone just throws in references because they used to be in marketing or they want to drop in some insider references about film production.
     
    somnar, Vidiot, turnersmemo and 2 others like this.
  11. artfromtex

    artfromtex Honky Tonkin' Metal-Head

    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    I think they are purposefully being slow and deliberate with the Kim/Jimmy storyline. I trust Gilligan and Co. will reward our patience. I think it will ultimately be Kim's betrayal that will crystallize Jimmy's metamorphosis into Saul Goodman.
     
  12. Brian_Svoboda

    Brian_Svoboda Senior Member

    Location:
    Virginia
    Mesa Verde might well have sent a demand letter or draft complaint privately to HHM. They would probably do that before actually suing. They indeed might not want to sue HHM, preferring instead to settle privately and receive what would presumably be the insurer's money, without going to the expense and publicity of litigation.

    Even if Mesa Verde hadn't overtly threatened to sue HHM, if they indicated a belief to HHM that the firm committed malpractice, then HHM might have had to disclose that promptly to their insurer.
     
    GregM likes this.
  13. I'm really impressed by the quality of dramatic acting displayed by these two, who have always been known as comedians.
     
    Tord, somnar, wavethatflag and 4 others like this.
  14. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Jimmy metamorphosed into Saul long ago in response to the way his father had been taken by every swindler who set foot in the shop, and Jimmy internalizing the idea that you either stand up and take what you want, or you lie down and let people walk all over you. It was in the vignette where Jimmy started stealing money from his father's cash register. That part of Jimmy's character has already been fully developed and informs most of his actions. His knowledge of law is merely superimposed upon this world-view. He knows what's right and wrong ethically, but he also knows that people will not behave in accordance with that and has modified his own ethics accordingly.
     
    Vidiot likes this.
  15. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    Considering I and apparently many other viewers don't find the dialogue out of character, and it's a safe assumption the writers don't, then I think you might just be the outlier on this.

    I think it's a leap to assume the writers have some fetish for a given topic (video production or marketing) and shoehorn it into the script. Obviously, they draw on whatever knowledge they have (or seek outside expertise where needed). But unlike, say, when Stephen King writes stories about a guy who writes books, I don't see anything on BCS happening other than the writers following where the story takes them.

    Jimmy using lingo, often to excess or even knowingly incorrectly (e.g. "check the gate!") is *part* of his character. It would be out of character for Jimmy to just blandly do something like that video shoot and just act bored or like he doesn't have any idea what he's doing.

    Walt in BB is a whole other ball of wax, and the writers eventually make it pretty explicitly clear that part of Walt bloviating about this or that topic was due to him being a blowhard. He was sometimes proven wrong in his assumptions about the drug business, and in other cases the characters talking to Walt *call him out* on his being a blowhard and talking and talking and talking and being super obvious about BS-ing people. Skyler and Mike in particular call Walt out on this at key moments.
     
    Tord, somnar, Tim S and 2 others like this.
  16. BEAThoven

    BEAThoven Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I think any great con man goes for preparation and perception -- throwing around terms like that is strictly to impress these reticent and novice clients.
     
    Hot Ptah, artfromtex and RayS like this.
  17. artfromtex

    artfromtex Honky Tonkin' Metal-Head

    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    There are 3 characters inside of him:
    • Jimmy McGill - the nice guy "Charlie Hustle" type that selflessly takes care of his unloving brother and puts others needs above his own. And yeah, maybe expects a little good karma to come back his way as a result.
    • "Slippin' Jimmy" - a con man who identifies a person's vices and weaknesses and exploits them for a short term financial gain. Doesn't prey on just anyone. Looks for real d-bags to take advantage of. Some moral relativism is always present.
    • Saul Goodman - this is a mixture of "Slippin' Jimmy" and the antithesis of Jimmy McGill. This is a deeply hurt, bitter and cynical man. Who still sees the world as it "should be" but contrasts with his perceived reality where everyone is a no good crook.
    He is definitely far down the road to becoming Saul, but he ain't there yet. He wishes!! Unfortunately the bottom has not dropped beneath him yet. But it will.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
    Hot Ptah, EVOLVIST and Tim S like this.
  18. Neil Anderson

    Neil Anderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    A lot of street smart guys that I've known are curious about a wide range of subjects and have good memories. So it doesn't bother me a bit that Jimmy occasionally shows off a surprising amount of knowledge about a particular subject. If he suddenly started speaking fluent Japanese, or did some calculus, that would bother me, but I think the writers have stayed within the bounds of plausibility.
     
  19. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I think it's in character--but that's purely a testament to Odenkirk's skill as an actor in portraying Jimmy so well--both as a lawyer and a con man. The ad man/videographer routine fits in his method of acting.

    Invoking King is totally on point. This is much like an author who writes about writers, a singer who sings about singers, a painter who paints painters painting, etc. If you don't mind that, you won't mind this.

    The knowledge of this lingo is de facto coming from the writers/creators of the show--and that's why it's pulling me out of the experience of getting lost in the narrative, which is what great writing achieves.

    As created at the outset, there was a range to Walt's bloviating. It was relegated to areas of science, chemistry and personal expertise he could draw from. Unfortunately, the show did not stay disciplined about Walt's character and he became a total BS artist. Even this was tolerable when it was purely to protect his secret or his family, but at some point it got away from staying true to the character. I think Gilligan/Gould have hit upon a way to have it both ways with Jimmy...they learned from BB, and the rest is carried by Odenkirk.

    I just don't get how anyone can say that the bottom has not dropped out yet. The show clearly documents how his entire motivation to evolve from Saul Goodman to a lawyer is precisely because the bottom dropped out through his Chicago sunroof ordeal that landed him in jail. He begged Chuck to come to his rescue and then changed his whole life to follow Chuck out to Albuquerque. Even since getting his law degree the bottom has dropped out for him: when he realized that it was Chuck all along fighting against him at HHM, which precipitated his trip back to Cicero and resumption as a two-bit hustler. I agree that there is an underlying sense of morality or relativism that you say. But the three characters you identify are not at all distinct and he can segue between them at the drop of a hat. He is all three at once and has enough self awareness to understand that about himself. He knows when to push the boundaries and when to lay off.
     
  20. Veltri

    Veltri ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪

    Location:
    Canada
    Almost every episode there's a reference he makes to a movie, so it's been established that film is one of his passions. Using filming or framing terminology is his way of bringing a hobby into his daily life. Keeps the boredom down by going above someone's head referencing the rule of thirds.
     
    Gems-A-Bems, artfromtex and George P like this.
  21. artfromtex

    artfromtex Honky Tonkin' Metal-Head

    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    The Chicago sunroof was not him bottoming out. That was a singular incident that made him "straighten up" and motivated him to walk the straight and narrow and live life the way you're "supposed to".

    The true bottoming out will be once Jimmy is isolated and feels that there is no security in attempting to live life "by the book". He is not there yet. But, he is well on his way. Kim is the last thread holding "Jimmy McGill" together.
     
    Hot Ptah, Tim S and GodShifter like this.
  22. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    The flashback vignette with Chuck visiting him in jail showed Jimmy as a broken man who had been stripped of his freedom and was totally desperate for help. I've never been to jail, but I imagine it's a lot more of a bottoming out than losing your girl, which I've got plenty of experience in.

    Maybe we're watching a different show, but Jimmy has never attempted to live life by the book. Even when Chuck or Kim manipulate him into saying he'll play by the rules, he can't make it through a single episode without straying. From the start, through the whole Kettleman arc, he always called his own shots.

    Losing Kim would be a big blow to Jimmy--no doubt you're right about that. But how it all plays out remains to be seen. I get the sense that if she left him or betrayed him he wouldn't be surprised.
     
  23. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    Just a quick addition about Jimmy's character and where his personality is at this moment - in addition to what you listed above, he's currently in a situation where he just cannot get a break to save his life: everywhere he turns he's getting screwed, so it's natural he would at some point say "screw it, I can't get anywhere working hard or being creative or trying to do the right thing, might as well do what I do best"
     
    Hot Ptah, George P and artfromtex like this.
  24. artfromtex

    artfromtex Honky Tonkin' Metal-Head

    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    He fails, yes. But he tries and he thinks there is some kind of unforeseen reward in the attempt at living the "straight" life. Every attempt he has made since Chuck sprung him from jail has been unrewarded. His last bit of hope lies in Kim. That is the only thing that makes him push away his natural tendency to fully become who we know as Saul Goodman.
     
    Veltri and Lonson like this.
  25. artfromtex

    artfromtex Honky Tonkin' Metal-Head

    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
    I guess my point is that Jimmy tries to be good. Saul does not. So, he is not Saul yet. Getting real close, though.
     
    Tim S and George P like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine