"Better Records" website and their business practices as they apply to our hobby*

What a bizarre response to a debate on the internet. I haven't seen any intimidation or attempts to silence voices except by those who claim direct experience trumps all. How have these voices not been considered? I and others considered the experience of reported of one sealed record and one very highly priced "hot stamper" and found it lacking. As I said before, I've no doubt that in general Port sells good sounding records. That's not at issue.

Also, I'd like to point out that "business practices" does include stuff like advertising and pricing. Yes, we are paying for his time and his years of experience--no issue with that. But many of us don't think that these intangibles are worth the $400-$700 he often adds to records that are available by the bushel (especially in the bargain bins of LA) at $5 and under. Some of us think business people should be bound by some notion of the inherent worth of what they sell, where Port is clearly after every last dollar he might squeeze out of his customers.

As to his advertising, read his description of Mint Minus Minus:
"Mint Minus Minus (M--)

Around a 7 on a scale of 1 to 10

Typical vinyl for ’50s & ’60s recordings and very common for classic rock records from the likes of Led Zeppelin, The Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix and so on. Will probably have constant light surface noise behind the music but it should not be of a terribly objectionable nature. Might have a click or pop here and there but nothing that repeats for very long. We make every effort to comment upon marks that make more than three ticks or pops. For many vintage records, even after a good cleaning this is as quiet as they will play."
Constant light surface noise and some ticks and pops and that's still in the mint range? Why does he depart from the accepted Goldmine standard of NM: "If played, it will do so with no surface noise." In fact, his Mint-- seems closer to VG by industry standard definition (" When played, a VG record has surface noise, and some scratches may be audible, especially in soft passages and during a song’s intro and ending. But the noise will not overpower the music otherwise.")

Meanwhile, his Excellent ++ (which implies the very top of the VG+ definition by Goldmine standards) is so bad "most audiophiles will not put up with vinyl that plays this poorly." I.e. VG or worse.

When a dealer can't even admit they are selling VG(+) records as just barely within the confines of Near Mint, that may tell you something about their propensity to exaggerate in general. And those of us with experience comparing pressings have found that except in a few cases--like the RL Led Zep II--the best pressing is not jaw droppingly better than the alternatives. Better, but not like Port describes it.

And with his sound grades, he defines A+++ as the "ultimate" but then once in a while grades something with four plusses. The man's a hype machine of the highest standards--judging conservatively.

What would be really great is if he posted needle drop samples of "average" pressings and the "hot stampers" he sells. If he did that, I would have much less issue--though I suspect his prices would drop precipitously due to lack of sales.

 

I didn't realize. I thought he liked the Classic.

 

Those all fall under the 'stunning' school of record grading.

Mint Minus Minus = "...a click or pop here and there but nothing that repeats for very long" ? Color me stunned.

 

according to this site my collection is worth about $2.5m

if only

 

Interesting because this..."As I said before, I've no doubt that in general Port sells good sounding records. That's not at issue." is THE issue for me. IF he really is selling a superior product then I have no problem with his pricing. That is a free market issue. Audiophile records selling for astronomical prices is nothing new and is a result of a free market. A market where consumers know what they want and sellers price according to supply and demand. But....as a consumer...my issue with TP is my confidence in his product. And really, I don't want to hear any more crap about his money back guarantee. I am not buying records via mail to "audition" them. The bottom line for me, as a consumer, is I don't trust his ears and for his prices I would have to absolutely trust his ears in a way that I don't trust anybody else's ears. If TP were to simply post hi res clips of his hot stampers so we as consumers knew exactly what the product sounded like that would pretty much end these discussions for me.

The only moral issue I can possibly see here is if he is knowingly peddling some of these records fully knowing that in some cases the audiophile reissues that he scorns actually are better. But I don't know that is true. And if he were willing to post hi rez clips of his product it wouldn't matter. The consumer could decide for themselves in private without the hassle of buying records by mail order to "audition" them.

 

The ponderous solemnity and high dudgeon of the anti-Better Records contingent in this thread is as entertaining as the “Telescopic Philanthropy” of Mrs. Jellyby in Bleak House, always busy campaigning on behalf of the faraway unfortunates of Borrioboola-Gha even as her own son falls down the stairs.

“Mrs. Jellyby, whose face reflected none of the uneasiness which we could not help showing in our own faces as the dear child's head recorded its passage with a bump on every stair—Richard afterwards said he counted seven, besides one for the landing—received us with perfect equanimity. She was a pretty, very diminutive, plump woman of from forty to fifty, with handsome eyes, though they had a curious habit of seeming to look a long way off. As if—I am quoting Richard again—they could see nothing nearer than Africa!”

The victims, past and future, of Tom Port's perfidy owe much to the far-sighted solicitude of you deeply concerned gentlemen, focussed on the distant vinyl-buying behavior of others.

 

? -- have you read any of MisterBritt's posts? They define "ponderous."

 

I received my "super hot" copy of Linda Ronstadt's "Prisoner in Disguise" today.

It is without doubt a very good copy of this album. Didn't already own it so I can't compare, but the sound is smooth, vivid and warm. Up there with any audiophile pressings I own, and it's a stock Asylum copy (complete with scuffs on the cover). Very slight surface noise on the "A+" side, the "A++" side is absolutely quiet.

It's not by any means the only album I own with sound quality on this level, but it's a good piece-- no life changer, just a very enjoyable listen. As noted I paid $39 (incl. shipping) for it, and feel well satisfied. I assume the cheap price comes from the unpopularity of this title.

There's still no way I'd pay hundreds for a record of this quality-- it's better, but not THAT much better-- but I'd certainly browse his site for similar bargains in the future.

 

I think I paid about $22 for the still sealed copy I bought a year or two ago, opened, played and enjoyed with about the same results as yours. It's a US-pressed 70s album, so there will be the typical quality control issues of the era, but this one isn't bad at all. Pretty quiet and, like yours, the sound is smooth, vivid and warm.

Would I pay the premium you paid over mine? Maybe if it was I title I was really looking for. Would I pay more? Possibly, for something I just had to have but couldn't not find in acceptable condition. Would I pay hundreds? Not in this lifetime.

 

Now you have an issue with a money back guarantee of the actual analog product that you can listen with your analog equipment, but you advocate that he post hi-rez CLIPS?

If he did, just how long do you think it would before some gadfly like...oh, let's just say some folks on this thread...would then add to their list of complaints that the hi-rez clips weren't of the actual record? Or were enhanced somehow? Or he posted only the best sections of the record? Or some other such rationalization?

 

I don't have an issue with a money back guarantee. I have an issue with mail order auditions. Yes I do advocate he post hi rez clips. Does that sound like a bad idea to you?

Is that a real concern of yours?

 

Credibility is an issue.
First, let's read the Better Records review of the Analogue Productions 2X45rpm vinyl release of The Vince Guaraldi Trio Jazz Impressions of Black Orpheus:

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http://www.better-records.com/product.aspx?pf_id=guarajazzi_acoustech

"Vince Guaraldi - Jazz Impressions of Black Orpheus
45 RPM Acoustech Debunked

Sonic Grade: F
A Hall of Shame Pressing and another Heavy Vinyl LP debunked from the consistently execrable Analogue Productions label, purveyors of bad sounding vinyl from day one.
Product Detail

We played an amazing Hot stamper copy that got the bottom end on this album as right as we've ever heard. The contribution of the bass player was clear and correctly balanced in the mix, which we soon learned to appreciate was fundamentally important to the rhythmic drive of the music.

The bass was so tight and note-like you could see right into the soundstage and practically picture Monte Budwig plucking and bowing his instrument.

This is precisely where the 45 RPM pressing goes off the rails. The bloated, much-too-heavy and poorly-defined bass of the Heavy Vinyl remaster makes a mess of the Brazillian and African rhythms inherent in the music. If you own that $50 waste of money, believe me, you will not be tapping your foot to Cast Your Fate to the Wind or Manha de Carnival.

If you happen to have a friend with that title in his collection, ask to take a peek at it. I'll bet it's pristine. Bad records don't get played much. Some audiophiles have complained that we spend too much time bashing Heavy Vinyl, but if ever a record deserved it, it's that one. It's a failure as a remastering and an insult to the analog buying audiophile public at large. Seaching the web I am glad to see that no one seems to have anything nice to say about it as of this writing. No one should, but that has not deterred the reviewers and forum posters in the past.

What to Listen for
The arrangement of the players is straightforward, with the bass hard left, drums hard right (with leakage well to the left on the cymbals, but that's another story), and Guaraldi on piano in the center. (The first track of side two reverses this arrangement; why I have no idea.)

Here's the crazy thing about this recording: The best copies really connects up -- ties together -- the space each of the players is in. I heard it during the shootout, and I can't recall if it actually happened more than once or twice, but I know I heard it. They are all live, they are all on the same soundstage, but on most copies you would never know it. They sound like they are playing in booths, the ambience never extending very far in any direction.

The best copies have so much ambience that one player's space extends all the way to the edge of the other player's space. The effect, though rare, is nothing less than magical.

Other Options

The early colored vinyl mono pressing we played was awful in every way. Steer clear at anything more than a buck.

As we mentioned earlier, we flushed good money down the drain in order to suffer through the 45 Analogue Productions cutting of the album. What a mess. Ridiculously bloated overblown bass is its major shortcoming, but compression and an overall lifeless quality are obvious problems that made us give up on it pretty quickly.

This is the kind of sound that audiophiles want? I find that hard to believe. It's what they're stuck with because the good early pressings are just too hard to find and too noisy and groove damaged when you do find them.

Most pressings of this album, the OJC and the later reissues especially, are just plain awful, so for the typical audiophile record collector the 45 might actually be a step up over those pressings. Like so much of the heavy vinyl we have played in the last few years, we did not find the sound enjoyable or compelling. I would venture a guess that the DCC gold CD is clearly better overall."

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I just listened to my copy of the reissue in question.
Rather than go through the review, let's condense it to its single conclusion:

Sonic Grade: F

I'll forgo writing any of my opinions and just suggest that anyone who's interested download these two one-minute long sample FLACs of the two tracks TP mentions from my copy of the (vinyl) album:

Cast Your Fate To The Wind
http://wikisend.com/download/403592/CYFTTW SMPL.flac

Manha de Carnival
http://wikisend.com/download/887108/Manha De Carnaval SMPL.flac

I realize downloading a FLAC sample isn't anything like hearing the actual vinyl, but I think you can judge whether or not the sound rates

Sonic Grade: F

Note: just as TP asserts, my copy is pristine, but not for the reason he suggests. Mine is pristine because I take care of my records.

 

I am late to the party on this but I find the "Hot Stamper" idea fascinating. My father was a mastering engineer and made stampers for RCA in the 70s and 80'S then made stampers for CD's in one of the first plants in the US.

I told him about "Better Record's" and their process and he quickly agreed that the first records pressed would be of a higher quality than the last. That is what kept him in business making new stampers, 10,000 was the limit on one stamper.

The thing is that there is absolutely no way to identify a first press from the last and the only way to do so is with a subjective listening test. So really what people are paying astronomical dollars for is the credibility of the opinion of the staff at "Better Records".

I find that credibility to be diminished by such strong criticisms of mfsl and all modern day pressings. I have ears and I find them stunning in many cases. There is no question that their business model benefits, or is dependent on, the idea that only old records can be good.

Any one of us could copy this business model.
Step one, dig for old records.
Step two, clean said records.
Step three, listen to records and give it a grade.
Step four, promote your equipment and opinion as the best.
Step five, get on the internet and market how good your records are and how bad everyone else's are.

If Better Records can find "hot Stampers" the rest of us can as well. They hold no advantage on the procurement process. It is simply find good clean records of popular titles and listen to them.

So again, they only thing they are selling is their grading system. What they should do is offer that grading service at a price. Much like coins and baseball cards can be sent out for official grading. I'm sure that many of us have records that would get a very good grade and would gladly flip for $500 to $1000.

I would not buy from Better Records. I like to shop for records, I can form my own opinions and trust that what I like is good. I can only imagine that their core customers are paying for the convenience and the assurance they have the best.

 

To wit, from my post above, TP makes gives this confusing opinion:

Most pressings of this album, the OJC and the later reissues especially, are just plain awful, so for the typical audiophile record collector the 45 might actually be a step up over those pressings.

If that is the case, how is it the Analogue Productions 45rpm reissue gets a "Sonic Grade: F" ? Oh, I see now -- those worse presses must be F-minus-minus or F-minus-minus-minus. Got it.

 

I have the "analog productions" of Reckoning by the Grateful Dead as well as an original pressing and I find the AP version to be nothing short of sublime. I have done a shoot out with the AP version, the original pressing the CD I bought in 89 and the DVD. The Analog Productions is always the favorite.

When anyone refers to something you love as "Garbage" it is more than insulting and rude, it shows a real limitation in their personality and judgment. Credibility is certainly out the window.

 

I get a kick out of flowery language like this, because it really is meaningless when you break it down:

"The bass was so tight and note-like you could see right into the soundstage and practically picture Monte Budwig plucking and bowing his instrument."

Soo... the bass was note-like? Something resembling notes? Okay...!
You could practically picture the musician playing his instrument... and could discern a pluck from a bow? So, usually when listening to music we can only imagine fuzzy gray abstract shapes...?
AND he knows the actual name of the bass player. You can't get that good stuff from a mildly cold stamper.

 

That's cool that your dad was a mastering engineer. If he was though, I'm thinking he actually made master lacquer disks for the pressing plant and did not actually make metal masters, mothers, and stampers...? I'm curious also because a fellow vinyl mastering engineer claims that 2,000 per stamper is more realistic (10,000 per lacquer seems plausible), and thus that quality would not be as serious an issue from stamper to stamper. (I suppose a single lacquer should be able to make 10,000 records without any noticeable loss in quality as well).

 

No he made the actual masters, mothers and stampers in and for the manufacturing environment. In the late 70's early 80's he was doing it for video disc, the predecessor for VHS and Beta tape. He said they typically did 2,000 per stamper and that is when they quality difference was noticeable. That was for video, he said they would push it up to 10,000 for records.



We had a ton of these when I was a kid. Just like a record, double sided and played with a stylus.

 

Very cool! That's very interesting about 10,000 per stamper considering that it's from a very reliable source. I know that number is floating around the internet, but my friend refuted it...guess it's plausible.

Rest assured I've experienced dramatic differences between two records that could very well have been from the same stamper, but how could I know for sure whether the differences are due to the life of the stamper or other factors? For all I know, many differences in records from the same pressing are related to usage, and while I'm sure that other differences could be traced back to the pressing plant (non-fill, for example), how could we ever really know if they're due to stamper wear? I suppose I'd like to think that a plant would conduct tests to make sure they're pulling the stampers on time, but again, who knows.

I don't doubt that there can be dramatic differences between records with the same matrix numbers, I just question whether or not it's related to worn stampers.

 

The biggest difference is always going to be the life that the record has lived since it was pressed. Quality control or "QC" was an entire department, that is where my mother worked. When there was any perceivable difference in the quality, the production stopped, those pressing were called "rejects" and there were lots of them. When they would go bad the pressing would have something called "dimples" and I'm sure other defects that I can't remember. I'm sure that 10,000 copies were rare but if there were no rejects, the stamper could have a longer life. Quality across an entire production run was a top priority, peoples jobs depended on it.

To me as sealed copy is always going to be the real treasure to find. The difference between the first thousand off the press and the next thousand is going to be minuscule as compared to the life the recorded lived in the last 30 to 40 years. Back in the day it was nothing to stack ten lp's on a spindle and let the auto-changer rip through them throughout the night. Not to mention the tone arms, and cartridges were more like a crossly than a VPI. Records scattered across the floor and stacked/stored outside of their cover was the most common practice for the most popular titles.

I am pretty cynical and I tent to think that the "hot stamper" could just be grading NM based on a listening test which very few online seller take the time to accomplish.

 

If the above is true, I think it's case closed for anybody who is now well aware of Tom's site and business model. Anything else is repetitive blather.

Buy 5 copies of an inexpensive record, cull out the best case recording, eat the $8.00-$12.00 for the 4 that didn't make the cut, get a side of fries, and look for other solvable sources of irritation.

 

Great post. Wow, a whole department devoted to vinyl QC? Today, it would be nice if they got even one person to do that job. Right now, it's pretty much up to the buyer. It took me 4 copies to get one that was playable for the MFSL "Blood on the Tracks."

 

All these posts about credibility and ethics, so little appreciation of masterly salesmanship. The hypnotic ability to build up a shiny aura of extreme desirability, to highlight a never-ending series of revelatory shoot-outs between the mediocre and the mind-blowing while sowing the seeds of doubt — doubt that your crummy collection measures up, doubt that a mere common classic-rock commodity that can be found everywhere for a few bucks can rival the golden needles in the haystack that Better Records alchemy has laboriously discovered and burnished to an ultimate state of pristine cleanliness.

Part of that salesmanship is the shameless, vicious, wholesale denigrating of Better Records' most dangerous rival and competition for the disposable income of affluent seekers of Veblen vinyl: the audiophile reissue market represented by Mofi, Classic, AP, and others. Thus the need for the crucial Tom Port chronicle of how he used to like and respect various Classic and Mofi releases until, one after another, he encountered a bog-standard original version that amazed him with its stunning fidelity and astonishing beauty. It was painful to let go, but the truth came out! And he's the only one who has seen through the audiophile reissue scam!

Here's the narrative of Tom Port's Led Zeppelin II spiritual journey and conversion:

I had a friend who had come into possession of a White Label Demo pressing of the second album and wanted to trade it in to me for the Mobile Fidelity pressing that I had played for him once or twice over the years, and which we both thought was The King on that album.

To my shock and dismay, his stupid American copy KILLED the MOFI. It TROUNCED it in every way. The bass was deeper and punchier. Everything was more dynamic. The vocals were more natural and correct sounding. The highs were sweeter and more extended. The whole pressing was just full of life in a way that the Mobile Fidelity wasn't.

The Mobile Fidelity didn't sound Bad. It sounded Not As Good. More importantly, in comparison with the good domestic copy, in many ways it now sounded Wrong.

Let me tell you, it was a milestone event in my growth as a record collector. I had long ago discovered that many MOFI's weren't all they were cracked up to be. But this was a MOFI I liked. And it had killed the other copies I had heard in the past.

So I learned something very important that day. I started to appreciate how different domestic copies that appear to be identical can sound.

Needless to say, the trade didn't go through: he kept his copy and I was stuck with mine. But I knew what to look for. I knew what the numbers were in the dead wax. And I started hunting them down.​

Total conviction and violent rhetoric: "shock...dismay...KILLED...TROUNCED..." Always whispering, don't be an idiot like I was. "It now sounded Wrong."

I mean, c'mon, this is a Glengarry Glen Ross cut-throat level of always closing, in the immortal word of Blake (as played by Alec Baldwin):

Because only one thing counts in this life: Get them to sign on the line which is dotted... A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Closing. Always be closing. ALWAYS BE CLOSING. A-I-D-A. Attention, Interest, Decision, Action. Attention - Do I have you attention? Interest - Are you interested? I know you are, because it's f%*k or walk. You close or you hit the bricks. Decision - Have you made your decision, for Christ? And Action. A-I-D-A. Get out there - you got the prospects coming in. You think they came in to get out of the rain? A guy don't walk on the lot lest he wants to buy. They're sitting out there waiting to give you their money. Are you gonna take it? ​