BIll Ward: No Grudges Toward The Other Members Of Black Sabbath

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Shvartze Shabbos, Jul 3, 2017.

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  1. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I wouldn't be surprised if Tony, Geezer and Bill have each been strained financially for the last few decades. I suspect that Ozzy is the only one who's really rock-star wealthy. But I'd also not be surprised if it's the Ozzy/Sharon camp saying, "Don't give Bill publishing because he doesn't write songs." Back in the 70's it was probably common for bands to split everything four or five ways regardless of who's doing what, but these days that's probably more akin to working off the clock. People have to answer to other people who may ask, "What the hell is he getting publishing for? Did he write those songs?" So it MAY be possible, however unlikely it may seem, that there are other pressures and responsibilities here other that someone's desire for more money.
     
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  2. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    It is a drag, for sure, but let's review because some of this history might impact how the band see things.

    1980: Bill leaves in the middle of the band's biggest tour in nearly two years and at the start of a new decade with a heavy rock resurgence starting to take full shape. Right amidst a comeback with a new singer and an album in the charts that many regarded as their best work in years. Recordings from this period show that Bill was playing out of his mind great, but a couple of days before the Mile High Stadium Denver show on the tour with Journey and Cheap Trick in front of a 100,000, he tells the band he's done, and going back to England. The band have to cancel, pissing off thousands of people with no clue why Sabbath are not going to appear. Bill's reasons are understandable as he had lost both parents in a short time period, was drinking and not really even in complete agreement with having a new singer in Black Sabbath, but that has to sting when it comes to road warriors like Tony and Geezer.

    1983: Bill leaves after Born Again. Won't tour. Tony and Geezer have to bring in old friend Bev Bevan. Did Bill explain to the guys that he would only do the album? I don't know. I doubt it. I doubt even he was sure but again, from the standpoint of Tony and Geezer, this must have been a bit of a letdown.

    1998: Two reunion shows, live album recorded, ginormous European tour planned before coming to the US the following year. Bill has a heart attack and Vinnie Appice has to be brought in to play the tour, then travel with the band as a backup "just in case." Now, this isn't Bill's fault or anything, but we probably should consider the overall picture.

    2006: Heaven and Hell project announced with Bill. Suddenly a few months down the road, Bill announces that he doesn't like the way he's being asked to play. He states that he refuses to play that straight ahead style "through Tony's riffs" and is done. Nearly a decade later, he tells Eddie Trunk he also didn't like his "contract."

    2013: After dropping from the latest reunion, Bill has Diverticulitis surgery while Sabbath are on tour, has to rebuild his strength to play, but in subsequent interviews insists that he would have been perfectly capable of doing the tour. Okaaayyyyy......

    We haven't even talked about how long people have waited for Bill to finish his album Beyond Aston. This has been going on for YEARS. Will he ever finish that album? Instead, he releases Accountable Beasts, talks about how Beyond Aston will also be coming out, and here we are.

    Am I forgetting anything?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  3. Instant Dharma

    Instant Dharma Dude/man

    Location:
    CoCoCo, Ca
    Wouldnt that be a trip. "Hey You are Tony Iommi. Scotty, don't puke on Mr Iommi. Scotty stop staring at his hand...."
     
  4. jon9091

    jon9091 Master Of Reality

    Location:
    Midwest
    Hmmm...not sure where that came from, but it was the Black and Blue tour with Blue Öyster Cult, at McNichols Arena that Bill was fired. I had tickets for that show, and we didn't hear until we were already inside and waiting for the band to come on that Sabbath would not be performing.


    On August 19, 1980, Bill Ward performed his last show with Sabbath at Met Center and like his former bandmate, Ozzy Osbourne, would not perform with Sabbath again until July 13, 1985 at JFK Stadium in Philadelphia for Live Aid. The following night, Sabbath were forced to cancel their appearance at a sold-out show at McNichols Sports Arena in Denver when Ward either arrived late or failed to go on. Blue Öyster Cult did perform and received the sizable proceeds of the show, while Sabbath were not paid for this show or for several subsequent shows that they cancelled due to Ward's unavailability. Ward departed, and the band, after being turned down by Cozy Powell, replaced Ward with Vinny Appice. Appice played his first show with Black Sabbath on August 31, 1980 at Aloha Stadium in Honolulu for The Summer Blowout.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
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  5. jon9091

    jon9091 Master Of Reality

    Location:
    Midwest
    heres the story from Black Sabbath FAQ


    [​IMG]
     
  6. painted8

    painted8 Forum Resident

    Seems like the last thing Sharon and Ozzy ought to do is question whether someone else was actually involved in the songwriting. Ask Bob Daisley about that.
     
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  7. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    None of this is relevant to the issue of how publishing is dealt with in the contract. It's 100% irrelevant. If they were going to skint him on tour money or require that he co-drum with Vinny Appice or something like that it would be relevant, but that's not what we're talking about.
     
  8. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    My guess is that Bill said he was going to leave the tour to go back to England, and maybe the band then made the decision to say he would then have to be replaced. In other words, the idea that he could return after this might not have been offered. Pearlman is the only guy I have ever heard refer to it as a "firing."

    Ronnie James Dio tells the story in the History Of Black Sabbath Part II documentary. Maybe his memory of it being before a stadium show was because the Summer Jam dates they did were just prior, but how it happened has never been in dispute, ttbomk. In fact I don't think I've ever heard Bill suggest he was "fired" in 1980.
     
  9. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    What an ideal, fair little world world you must live in.

    For many, I think previous experiences with people impact how they choose to treat those same people in future interactions. It can impact what is expected of someone and in this case there may be some resentment and feeling that Bill needs to earn his way back to being 1/4th of the band. I'm not saying that this is true or right if it is true, but it would certainly seem possible.

    To think one thing can't impact another seems somewhat delusional to me. If Tony and Geezer feel a sense of abandonment from Bill on previous occasions, I think to say this could never impact their feelings on publishing and is therefore "100% irrelevant" might be living in a fantasy world.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
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  10. Erik Tracy

    Erik Tracy Meet me at the Green Dragon for an ale

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    Fair reply except get rid of the first and last part (passive aggressive poke in the eye).
     
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  11. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Uh, no. Problems with touring performance affect things about touring, not publishing. Bill's problems with touring in the past would logically have led to a clause such as, "You can play on the album but we're getting someone else to be the touring drummer." It would not lead to, "We're cutting you out of publishing because you ditched us on tour too many times." I don't need your sneering, you need to learn how to make logical connections.
     
  12. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Except it's not a fair reply, it's speculative BS with no basis in reality.
     
  13. PyroMessiah

    PyroMessiah Forum Resident

    Location:
    Martinsburg, WV
    It's easy to be charitable with someone else's money isn't it?

    What I find baffling is that Ward's point of contention appears to have been his demand to receive publishing for songs he didn't write.
     
  14. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Presumably if he had participated in the album he would have contributed to the arrangements and that seems to be how he earned publishing credit before. He just wanted the same deal that he believes he always had in the past. Also, if I remember correctly, there is a difference between a writing credit and a publishing credit. They are not identical, and both earn money for those who hold them.

    But frankly I'm not surprised that the rest of Sabbath didn't want to hand out publishing credit to anyone who didn't actually write a song, the old everyone-gets-a-look-in deal is very antiquated.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
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  15. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Let me put this another way: The rest of the band might have concerns about Bill being able to FINISH projects.

    IMO, to assume this would exclusively apply to touring and not possibly play a role in every element of the band's financial negotiations is where you and I are not on the same page.

    Again, I don't know. I suspect none of us do. I only put forward some history for us to have a larger picture of what could be at play here, but you dismissed my work as "100% irrelevant", so ok then.
     
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  16. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    The subject was publishing. I do not believe that they wanted to cut him out of publishing because of his past touring problems. I believe it far more likely that they just wanted to give publishing to songwriters, as is the generally accepted practice. If they were concerned about his touring performance and his ability to follow through, and if that applied to the album recording as well, then I'm surprised that they even asked him back in the first place.

    I dismissed your work as "100% irrelevant" because it was. You say I'm living in a fantasy world because I think the band didn't want to grant publishing to a non-songwriter. So yeah, we are on very different pages.

    As long as "none of us know", then I'm going with the theory that makes logical sense to me.
     
  17. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    This has been very interesting discussion but I wish you guys would quit sniping at each other. You're both highly knowledgeable and articulate individuals. Cool out with snark and let's continue with the thread. No reason for people to get upset.
     
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  18. jon9091

    jon9091 Master Of Reality

    Location:
    Midwest
    It sounds like he had missed constantly late showing up, or they just weren't sure if he was going to make it out in stage repeatedly through the tour. Once it actually cost them a substantial amount of money (the show I happened to be sitting there waiting for them) they said no more...and got a replacement as Bill had wandered off anyway.

    According to Black Sabbath bandmate Iommi, Ward disappeared on 21 August 1980, without saying goodbye, other than a telephone call to then-Black Sabbath vocalist Ronnie James Dio informing him "I'm off then, Ron."

    Would Bill had come back for that next show? We'll never know because he was now no longer a member of the group...they made sure of it. It definitely didn't have anything to do with a Journey/Cheap Trick tour...other than perhaps Bill hating being in the band without Ozzy.
     
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  19. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I rarely snark until snarked upon. When someone starts talking down to me I don't often take it well.
     
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  20. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Understood completely. I'm not pointing fngers. I'd just like to see the thread continue without anyone getting a warning or the thread getting edited or whatever.
     
  21. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    This is another area where it might help to consider some history.

    In 1980, it is well documented that the Dio/Iommi team essentially wrote most of the Heaven And Hell album. When Tony insisted to Ronnie that Geezer and Bill also get writing credits, Ronnie was completely puzzled by that thinking and had never seen anybody think that way, but Tony would not budge and insisted that is the way Sabbath had always worked. He wanted that "teamwork" aspect to continue. Bill doesn't even remember much of the recording of H&H. He was drinking to the point of blacking out. Tony was having to even guide him through arrangements to get his drum parts completed and Bill has stated that Tony worked with him patiently through all of it. And in the end, Bill got equal credit on the album as a COMPOSER!

    So maybe after all of these years, Tony might feel like Bill has dropped in and out while he's constantly worked his tail off to keep Sabbath going? Maybe he knew he was going to have by far the most work to get the songs together for 13, and thus Bill wanting publishing wasn't reasonable to him?

    I don't know what Mick Wall's book says, but if he hasn't at least considered these types of things as possibly playing a role, he didn't do enough research, IMO.
     
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  22. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Let's just move on. I completely disagree, don't feel I was particularly "snarky" but do feel every contribution I have make to this thread is being kind of "dismissed" by you in a somewhat condescending manner. But I have no problem letting that go and accepting that you see it differently.
     
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  23. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    How would Geezer get writing credits when the demos for H&H were recorded without him? Craig Gruber did the initial tracks. When Geezer decided to return all he did was put down his own tracks to the already written music. Gruber insists that's him on H&H. I don't understand how Geezer deserved writing credits for H&H or Bill for that matter.
     
  24. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I don't recall Wall actually attempting to explain Ward's problems with the contract, he just includes the public comments from Ward and Geezer and lets them stand. The only reason I'm talking about the publishing angle is because in the interview quoted earlier, Bill identifies the refusal of publishing credit as a reason that his contact was unsignable. Up until reading that I had not been clear on any of the details that he found objectionable. So I assume that the rest of the band had just concluded that it's time that only actual songwriters get credit and Bill was holding out for something, anything to be included. And I don't think that Bill was necessarily right to do that. I think everyone would have been better off and happier, including him, if he'd have accepted the reality that he wasn't due any publishing credits. But there may be other aspects of the contract that I am unaware of.
     
  25. I don't give a damn about Black Sabbath, with or without Bill Ward, but this comment is right on the money, if you'll forgive the pun.
     
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