Black Sabbath Deluxe Editions January 22, 2016

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by The Hud, Dec 7, 2015.

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  1. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I don't think hard compression helps anybody, even the modern metal artists who seem to think it's necessary. Well-mastered Sabbath (or anything else) plus volume knob equals fully adequate intensity. I think the attitude of, "it's heavy metal, it NEEDS to be all loud and compressed" really sells the music short. The balls is in the music and the performance, not in the limiter. IMO of course.
     
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  2. ParanoidAndroid

    ParanoidAndroid Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bournemouth, UK
    A question about Paranoid - most people said the HD Tracks 24 bit version was too bright so why are people praising this new version if it's the same?
     
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  3. zen

    zen Senior Member

    I agree. For me, hard compression ruined Rush's last album. But we aren't the norm.
     
  4. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    For me, all that compression gives the music less "balls."

    IMO, part of what makes Sabbath sound so much more powerful than all of this metal in recent years is the dynamics. I find if you give those old Sabbath albums some real volume, they not only meet but far exceed anything in modern metal in terms of "intensity." Something like "War Pigs" has so much power and no way could some modern metal CD with a DR rating of 5 come within a hundred miles of what I hear on a track like that when it's mastered with its original dynamics intact.

    Some modern metal might sound intense initially, but I think that fades with prolonged listening because some of it seems like it's nothing but intense all the way through.
     
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  5. reb

    reb Money Beats Soul

    Location:
    Long Island
    agreed ^
     
  6. sathvyre

    sathvyre formerly known as ABBAmaniac

    Location:
    Europe
    Yeah, it makes me wonder how opinions change with the release of exactly the same mastering on a different format...I personally find it way too bright.
     
  7. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I know what the norm is, I'm just saying, like I have for many years in a variety of contexts, the norm sucks! :laugh:

    But seriously, I have to judge things by my own standards. I really don't see the value in trying to factor in currently fashionable trends. A whole lotta people think heavy music needs to be presented in a way that makes your ears bleed at any volume, but this creates no obligation for me whatsoever.
     
  8. tunes4thegoons

    tunes4thegoons Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan
    My bad, I worded that very poorly. I ordered the two new ones (s/t & Paranoid) from Warner/Rhino and the Sabotage & SBS from the Jan. 2015 Sancturary release. Already had s/t, paranoid, and MOR from Sanctuary. Still don't have Volume 4 post Castle and the mini lps. I can't remember the label for the mini lps. I got those in a bigger black box about the size of an LP . The box came with a medallion or some such trinket. I have several off the wall "Best of, or Greatest Hits discs as well. You know, the "Blackest Sabbath" (was that just castle?) stuff, as well as some odd releases like the double disc set with the coffin holes on the cover, another called Iron Man, too many to recount. The one double disc with the coffin holes in the ground has great remastering IMO. Still in yet I like the underground quad version of Paranoid on DVD-A that I got a few years back. Blows away the Sanctuary version. Musta been from reel to reel originally.
     
  9. Heavy Music

    Heavy Music Forum Resident

    Try to listen to Sabbath's last cd "13" at appreciably loud levels, what a blaring bunch of noise the squashed dynamics did to some of the best music Sabbath has made in a long time!
     
  10. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    I only listen to 13 on vinyl, which I find far better than the CD version for whatever reasons. But I still generally agree with your point.
     
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  11. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    13 is AWFUL on CD! If there's anything out there worse than that, I don't wanna hear it! :laugh: I have the LP and my own rips and they are terrific.
     
  12. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    Because, imo, it's the lesser of all evils. Anything which sounded like praise from me was not because I think it was especially well done, it's because it's better than most other options. There are two digital issues which I feel probably beat it for overall sound and that's the Intercord and Japanese 2fer CDs. However, the Intercord has a section or two in "Iron Man" which is mangled and the Japanese 2fer has at least one track at way too low volume, I believe another with channel gain out of balance and overall, while I find the CD to have a nice tone, it's just kinda weak sounding. Not to mention that these two CDs are very costly, so if you don't already own it and aren't looking to spend that much, they aren't an option anyway. A lot of people like the Castle '86, but I find it much too dull. This is the only non-expensive (but not exactly readily available) CD which may be a better suit for some people, but it's only going to be for those who like it to sound really dull. More dull than the 1st press UK LP.

    My personal favorite digital release is the HDtracks, but only when Eq'd to tame the brightness. But that's also not an option for some. There has yet to be a nice digital release of Paranoid, but if someone's only choices boil down to the WB, '96, Black Box and '09, I have no problem recommending the '16 over those. I also think it's better than the expensive SACD. If we're comparing the '16 to a theoretical perfect mastering or rare vinyl, it's a different story, but that's not what people on here were wanting to know.
     
  13. Tone_Boss

    Tone_Boss Forum Resident

    I have five versions of Paranoid if I include the DVD. Old Warner, Complete Box, 2016 Deluxe, and the Sanctuary Deluxe (with DVD). I'm honestly having a tuff time deciding which is best but crazily enough I'm leaning toward Complete Box. One litmus test I always revert to is the resonance off the drum skins, especially floor toms, and the symbols. I notice more clarity on these two points on the Complete Box version by a hair over the 2016. Interesting how much louder the 2016 is compared to the Warner, I have to really turn it up to get to the 2016 volume level. I don't think the old Warner is bad at all tho, not much separating them all imo, I guess you can only do so much with that source. The DVD I'd say is last of the bunch.
     
  14. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    Which is the "Complete Box"? There have been a number of complete boxes with different masterings.

    The DVD stereo mix is just an upsample of the CD resolution '09 mastering (which is mostly the '96 mastering). If you're talking about the quad mix on the DVD, then yeah, that's probably the worst sounding digital release of the album by a good margin. Otherwise, I find the WB to be the worst. The volume fluctuations in "War Pigs" are tough enough for me to stomach, but I also just don't like the overall sound. It's not just too bright, but also too lean and that's a major no-no for me with Sabbath, particularly this album.
     
  15. Jontario

    Jontario Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Thanks, I'll be ordering the HDtracks next time they have a promo.

    The best info I could ever find on the origin of the 2012 remasters is at this page:

    http://www.black-sabbath.com/2012/11/vinyl-box-set-to-be-released/

    You should read right down to the end of the page because that's where most of the good info is. Remembering that this Vinyl box set they are talking about, came with 24/96 down load vouchers as well.

    This is part of what was reported to be an email from Universal regarding the process:

    "To start the process to create ‘The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978’ limited edition box set, the original master tapes were first retrieved from both Black Sabbath’s own private archive and the Universal Music vaults. This meant that there were several different versions of each album to work with, which led to a greater opportunity to make these the definitive Black Sabbath masters, and of considerable interest to all Black Sabbath fans.

    Working at the renowned Wired Masters studio in London, veteran engineers Matt Wortham and Andy Pearce meticulously and painstakingly transferred, and then mastered the tapes at a resolution of 24-bit/96 kHz to ensure the best possible audio quality. Referencing previous versions from both vinyl and CD sources to ensure that the tapes were still in prime condition, the team ensured that these 2012 vinyl remasters were given the best possible starting platform."
     
  16. Tone_Boss

    Tone_Boss Forum Resident

    http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Albu...962125&sr=8-1&keywords=black+sabbath+complete

    Yes the DVD is the quad mix which is quite lifeless.
     
  17. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    Thanks, that was a good read. Some thoughts I have…

    Was the digital download coupon really for hi-res? I thought it was just mp3.

    They advertised it as being remastered from the original master tapes, but then said they pulled multiple copies of each album to find the best sounding tapes. It sounds like they are calling any tape in the band or label's archive, a master tape. These are the kind of loose facts I'm talking about. Also, they used that awful source for "Wicked World" (replaced from tape source for HDtracks). I just don't know how anyone listens to that source and thinks it's ok to use. And it really looks like Live at Last is sourced from 44.1 digital. It makes it pretty hard to trust any of their advertised claims.

    One thing which always disappoints me is when I read engineers describing the process and hitting on all the right things to say, but when it comes out, it doesn't seem to have been really done that way. Now, I've never heard the actual vinyl set (other than to check a needle drop for WW & L@L sources). So I'm wondering if the HDtracks is really the final mastering used for the vinyl or if they were each different masterings of the same transfers (aside from WW, which is a totally different source). Because there's some digital overloading on the HDtracks, but it's mentioned that the engineers took great care to make sure that didn't happen. I also really wonder how Andy goes from mastering these albums very non-bright in 2009 to mastering them too bright in 2012. I remember for the 2009s he was quoted as saying how the previous CDs were much too bright compared to the original vinyl and he was going for that original vinyl sound. And aside from the 3 which don't seem to be his work, the 09's sound in line with that approach. So why the big change for 2012 and he now feels they should be brighter?
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
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  18. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
  19. tkl7

    tkl7 Agent Provocateur

    Location:
    Lewis Center, OH
    Same mastering as the Black Box.
     
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  20. Khamakhazee

    Khamakhazee Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I would love for Paranoid to get the Audio Fidelity treatment.
     
  21. pool_of_tears

    pool_of_tears Searching For Simplicity

    Location:
    Midwest
    Same here, along with the debut album and Master Of Reality.
     
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  22. Queezma

    Queezma Forum Resident

    Yes agreed....they are MUCH better than the 96 Castle remasters.
     
  23. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    I'm not familiar with the 2015 Sanctuary. Are they the same as the '09s? I like the 09's for those albums as well as for V4. It's been a long time since I compared any comps and can't really remember anything about them.

    There were 3 DVD-A Sabbath quads that I'm aware of. One is from vinyl and sounds very nice and two were from reel. The first one from reel was running at the wrong speed (slow). Actually, I believe it was played back at the proper speed, but the error is actually on the commercial reel that way. Then it was re-transferred at correct speed on another DVD-A and is the best I've heard.
     
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  24. Neilson77

    Neilson77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nottingham UK
    I've stated in other threads before i really don't think the Black Box is bad. Yes its compressed and EQ is a bit bright but the clarity of the masterings is great. Compare the black box Vol 4 to the latest UK Andy Pearce remaster. The Pearce is just dull. Sounds like the tape must have deteriorated to me. Has dropouts and lack of high frequency compared to black box and the UK Porky vinyl. I wasn't impressed by the Japan SACD Vol 4 either, also dull. Wasn't that also supposed to have used the original UK master tapes?
     
    dlank likes this.
  25. Vinyl Fan 1973

    Vinyl Fan 1973 "They're like soup, they're like....nothing bad"

    I own the black box, and one of the details that the set gets wrong, is the air around Geezers bass parts on the debut and Paranoid. You can hear just how good those bass lines are on these new 2016 CDs, as well as the original vinyl.

    For the debut I have an absolute incredible sounding Australia Fontana press in mint condition. I mean you put that LP on and your jaw hits the floor, it's that good. It's my fave go to for the debut.

    I love listening to the 2016's with a headset and just focus on Geezers playing. Just great licks and good sounding, and you can't get into that headspace with the black box.
     
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