Bob Dylan's Basement Tapes - where we're at currently (Part 2)...

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by hodgo, Aug 29, 2014.

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  1. NewWarden

    NewWarden Forum Resident

    My memory of reading Invisible Republic is I rolled my eyes and put it down forever when he dismissed the Ian and Sylvia covers.
     
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  2. I guess the "Teenage Prayer" pastiche is actually Dylan-composed/improvised (though never copyrighted to my knowledge), but I thought it was okay to add since it didn't actually make the cut. No matter how many times I listen to this, it never fails to bring a smile to my face.
     
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  3. HominyRhodes

    HominyRhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    The Basement version of Four Strong Winds had a profound effect on me, I can't really explain why. Although the song has been around since the '60s, I missed it somehow. When I heard Dylan's take for the first time about 20 years ago, I looked through my collection and realized I had Neil Young's version of the song, as well as the original by Ian and Sylvia. More recently, I bought a copy of Bobby Bare's Greatest Hits, which has still another version, done '60s Nashville country style, and it's great, too. But something about the quality of Dylan's vocal, and the melody, and the casual Basement sound all added up to something greater than each of those individual elements.
     
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  4. gottafeelin

    gottafeelin Forum Resident

    Location:
    Georgia
    Your dad is Andy Kim??!
     
  5. Koabac

    Koabac Self-Titled

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    No. No he is not.
     
  6. gottafeelin

    gottafeelin Forum Resident

    Location:
    Georgia
    Jeff Barry?
     
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  7. Using Hominy's list here as a guide, I thought it would be a good time to play that ever-popular game "Guess the Reel Breaks" - i.e., the places where there's a definite break between tracks included on a single reel versus the next one in sequence. As I posted in the original thread, if recording to standard 1/4" reels on the Ampex 602 machine at 7-1/2 ips, you've got a maximum of about 40 minutes recording time to work with per reel (though it's thought by some that some of the earlier tracks were recorded at 3-3/4 ips, halving that amount). So given an average track length of say 3-4 minutes, you're looking at the most at 10-13 tracks per reel - though I think it's very likely some reels were only partially recorded to.

    In all this we have Heylin, Griffin and of course - our ears - as guides. There's pretty clear sonic and stylistic/thematic similarities between some of the tracks likely recorded to the same reels that takes out a lot of the guesswork. I'll try to come up with 20 reels total, which I believe is the actual number given in the Rolling Stone article and elsewhere...

    Reel 1 - CD1, tracks 1-4, "Edge Of the Ocean" through "Mr. Blue"

    These four tracks are all previously uncirculated, so this appears to be a newly discovered reel. No comments on the audio, because like most everybody else at this juncture, I haven't heard them.

    Reel 2 - CD1, tracks 5-13, "Belshazaar" through "Bells Of Rhymney"

    This is the session(s) of mostly Sun Records covers that I earlier posted has been judged by most commentators as having been recorded much later in the sessions. I concur with that. Due to prior less-than-ideal transfers/remastering efforts, I suspect we'll see a substantial upgrade in sound quality on these compared to how they sound on currently circulating boots.

    Reel 3 - CD1, tracks 14-20; CD2, track 1; CD6, tracks 12-13; (2) other unknown tracks

    This one's fairly straightforward because of course we now have an image of the actual tape box to refer to. Most commentators assign these as among the earliest tracks recorded after proceedings had moved from Dylan's house to Big Pink. It includes a few of the more "audio challenged" items, as it appears Garth hadn't really dialed in the sound early on there.

    Reel 4 - CD1, tracks 21-22, "I'm a Fool For You"

    I believe Heylin has the "I'm a Fool For You" attempts isolated on a single reel, so with the thought that he knows something I don't, I'll go with his version here.

    Reel 5 - CD6, tracks 14, 20, 21; CD2, tracks 2-7 "The Big Flood" through "Big Dog"

    This is when things really started loosening up with lots of jokey, off-color stuff, though "Tiny Montgomery" also found its way in here. Still don't like the out-of-sequence relegation to CD6 of several of these items, for probable reasons (as posted earlier) of good taste or political correctness (shouldn't a few lapses in these areas be expected given the recording circumstances???)

    Reel 6 - CD2, tracks 8-13 "Teenage Prayer" through "I'm In the Mood"

    Mostly following Heylin again from memory, with a couple more less serious items surrounding some contemporary folk covers.

    Reel 7 - CD2, tracks 14-16 "Baby Ain't That Fine" through "A Fool Such As I"

    Reel 8 - CD2, tracks 17-21, "Song For Canada" through "One Man's Loss"

    Reel 9 - CD2, tracks 22-26, "Lock Your Door" through "Don't You Try Me Now"

    Reel 10 - CD3, tracks 1-6, "Young But Daily Growin'" through "I'm Alright"

    All these tracks in this jumbled reel order have been thought by most commentators to be the earliest "basement" recordings, made in Dylan's "Red Room" prior to the move to Big Pink, possibly recorded at 3-3/4" ips (thus the fewer tracks per reel), and exhibiting more bleed between channels due one might assume to more loose mic'ing of the sources at that stage. I'd be really surprised if someone can provide a logical explanation why they're sequenced at this stage in the new set.

    Reel 11 - CD3, tracks 7-16, "Million Dollar Bash" (T1) through "Lo and Behold" (T2)

    And so we jump from probable Red Room directly into the "Basements Proper", with efforts turning to proper demo recordings of newly composed Dylan originals. Though some of these sound pretty good on the '75 LP, there's substantial room for audio upgrades in most of these tracks over the previously circulating "wide stereo" versions on the boots. High hopes in this area.

    Reel 12 - CD3, tracks 17-23, "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" (T1) through "Too Much Of Nothing" (T2)

    More Basements Proper, with somewhat better representation on the boots this time, though the Take 1's of "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" and "Too Much of Nothing" have only circulated in mono to date. Dying to hear what the previously uncirculated (T1) of "I Shall Be Released" sounds like. The proper take itself should sound vastly upgraded over the version on the Bootleg Series.

    Reel 13 - CD4, tracks 1-11, "Tears of Rage" (T1) through "Nothing Was Delivered" (T3)

    As I detailed in earlier posts, this reel was apparently misplaced for a period of time, as derivations on the Basement Safety and Fraboni reels are documented as being from generational dubs. The original '75 LP versions sound mostly pretty good here, but good sounding versions of the original wide stereos will be most welcome.

    Reel 14 - CD4, tracks 12-13, "All-American Boy", "Sign On the Cross"

    Most commentators have these two Dylan originals at an earlier point prior to the "Basements Proper"; will have to await an explanation for their placement here.

    Reel 15 - CD4, tracks 14-19, "Odds and Ends" (T1) through "Apple Sucking Tree" (T2)

    Everything from here on out was all gravy, as Dylan had already fulfilled his demo quota at this point. But such was the wealth of inspiration at this point that here we have some of the more intriguing efforts of the sessions - two takes of the rocker "Odds and Ends", the brilliant parody of "Clothesline Saga", etc.

    Reel 16 - CD4, tracks 20-21, "Don't Ya Tell Henry", "Bourbon Street"

    Break out the brass for these two oddities which again appear here at a point much later than that proposed by most commentators. Previously only circulating in mono - looking forward to the wide stereo versions if they've got them.

    Reel 17 - CD5, tracks 1-14, "Blowin' In the Wind" through "900 Miles"

    Here we're getting into substantially unknown territory, as most of these selections are previously undocumented/uncirculated. I would assume at the least that this is the point where Levon enters the sessions, around the 2nd week of October '67 chronologically, with his participation occurring on far more basement recordings than previously thought.

    Reel 18 - CD5, tracks 15-25, "Wildwood Flower" through "All You Have to Do Is Dream"

    Mostly guesswork again, with the tracks here likely recorded at fairly widely separated sessions in between Dylan's forays to Nashville for the JWH sessions. It starts off with the "Dylan autoharp" session and proceeds all the way through to the two takes of the enigmatic original "All You Have to Do Is Dream." Very intrigued by the placement of "Goin' to Acapulco" here - could this actually be a Levon track? (come to think of it, stylistically it could be him). The long-anticipated "Wild Wolf" will be a treat as well.

    Reel 19 - CD6, misc tracks

    Reel 20 - CD6, misc tracks

    Two final reels to take in the remaining listings on CD6, most likely divided into one grouping of previously uncirculated items, and a second grouping of the rough early Big Pink tracks like "King of France", "Goin' Down the Road", "Come All Ye Fair and Tender Ladies", "Bring It On Home", etc., previously unaccounted for.

    That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it! :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  8. TeddyB

    TeddyB Senior Member

    Location:
    Hollywoodland
    Is I'm Your a Teenage Prayer literally a cover? I think it's essential.
     
  9. Before someone calls me out on this, I think I screwed up one aspect of the previous post regarding tape speed utilized and resulting capacities. Since the tape is moving through the tape heads at a faster rate at the higher speed (i.e., 7-1/2 ips) you actually have half the recording time available at that speed as compared to 3-3/4" ips. Not going to go back and change any of the configurations based on this correction, but it's something to keep in mind.
     
  10. Moth

    Moth fluttering by

    Location:
    UCI
  11. RayS

    RayS A Little Bit Older and a Little Bit Slower

    Location:
    Out of My Element
    It must have been powerful weed, because he didn't play "Hero Blues" in Philadelphia. ;-) After the two Chicago shows it was dropped, forever.
     
  12. paulg61

    paulg61 Senior Member

    Location:
    CT
    Exactly how I both discovered the song as well as how it hit me & I'll throw in "The French Girl" as well - always loved the way he restarts that one in a different key/tempo & how they he-they put down both Ian & Sylvia songs side by side together !
     
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  13. subtr

    subtr Forum Resident

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  14. LonesomeDayBlues

    LonesomeDayBlues Forum Resident

    Location:
    Long Beach, CA
  15. alankin1

    alankin1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philly
    From the Facebook post above:

    [​IMG]


    There's a hint that they were inspired by Louis Armstrong's RTR tape box collages:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  16. lou

    lou Fast 'n Bulbous

    Location:
    Louisiana
    The story I want to hear is the one about Brian Wilson! Give her a few glasses of wine and get her talking!
     
  17. Moth

    Moth fluttering by

    Location:
    UCI
  18. HominyRhodes

    HominyRhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I had a feeling you were working on another opus like this -- a great, detailed analysis, as usual. (And the tape speed issue -- 3 3/4 ips makes a longer tape, 7 1/2 ips makes a shorter tape -- is easy enough to figure out.)

    As you noted, the two takes of I'm A Fool For You (normally a single track on the boots, running just under 4 minutes) probably were on a separate reel, as evidenced by their placement on the new box. The sequence of the last five tracks on the original "Charley Rich" reel was:

    I'm Guilty of Loving You ("part")
    Johnny Todd

    Water [Cool Water]
    That Ole Triangle [The Royal Canal]
    [Po'] Lazarus


    But on the new box, the running order of the tracks at the end of CD 1 and onto CD 2, is:

    I'm Guilty of Loving You (part)
    Water [Cool Water]
    That Ole Triangle [The Royal Canal]
    [Po'] Lazarus

    I'm A Fool For You (take 1)
    I'm A Fool For You (take 2)

    Johnny Todd

    As I noted in an earlier post, they may have altered the chronology of some recordings to make a more pleasurable listening experience, as well as plucking out some of the poorly recorded songs and grouping them on the final disc. It certainly will be interesting to see how they justify some of the "new" sequences of the 138 tracks on the box set. Until then we'll have a lot of fun(?) trying to sort all this out, matching songs to reels, and we're lucky to have you delving into it like this. Thanks again.

    (I'm going to look over your post again, so you may be seeing more replies.)
     
  19. LonesomeDayBlues

    LonesomeDayBlues Forum Resident

    Location:
    Long Beach, CA
    Might be memorabilia scrapbook kind of thing? Perhaps the "...should be release.." tag is the clue that we might get magazine clippings related to the basement tapes, rolling stone review of Great White Wonder, etc?
     
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  20. HominyRhodes

    HominyRhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    This has been posted many times before, but here is the track list for Ian & Sylvia's album, Four Strong Winds (1964) -- note all the Dylan/Basement connections:

    A1 Jesus Met The Woman At The Well (an early Dylan performance piece)
    A2 Tomorrow Is A Long Time (by Bob Dylan)
    A3 Katy Dear
    A4 Poor Lazurus
    A5 Four Strong Winds
    A6 Ella Speed
    A7 Long Lonesome Road
    B1 V'La L'bon Vent
    B2 Royal Canal
    B3 Lady Of Carlisle (sung live by Dylan in recent years)
    B4 Spanish Is A Loving Tongue
    B5 The Greenwood Sidie
    B6 Every Night When The Sun Goes Down (an early Dylan performance piece, as Every Night When the Sun Goes In)
    B7 Every Time I Feel The Spirit

    The French Girl appeared on the Ian & Sylvia album Play One More in 1966.
     
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  21. ronbow

    ronbow Senior Member

    Location:
    St. Louis MO
    Very cool - that book should be a real treat! It was my assumption that it would match #8 and 10, but will be nice to confirm and actually having it sitting along side those. The companion volumes for those 2 were: THE COLLECTED SINGLE SLEEVES (#8)and TIME PASSES SLOWLY - Photographs and More (#10).

    It is all-too-rare to see this kind of consistency for archival sets spanning a number of years. (I was a bit disappointed, for example, that the Band didn't match AOR to the MUSICAL HISTORY format.)
     
  22. Yorick

    Yorick Senior Member

    Location:
    the Netherlands
    That's the story that I'm interested in more than the Lennon one too!
     
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  23. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member

    Location:
    In The Felony Room

    Heylin found some nice quotes on this subject from Dylan himself, which he included in the intro to his "Revolution In the Air" book: “Interestingly, this happened shortly after he departed from a working practice established early on in his career. Having rarely felt compelled to work out the words first, he began to break this golden rule on the songs he wrote at Big Pink in the summer of 1967, carrying over the practice to the unexpectedly austere John Wesley Harding.
    But generally Dylan has used the tune as a prop (or often, when trawling tradition, as the germ of an idea). As he told journalist Ray Connolly, "When I do songs I usually fit the words around the music, and it’s the music which determines the words." He was even more specific to Australian journalist Karen Hughes: "A melody just happens to appear as I’m playing and after that the words come in and out." Not a bad way to make a living.”
     
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  24. Koabac

    Koabac Self-Titled

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Thanks! I'm always fascinated by the writing approach of my favorites. I would have really thought Dylan a lyric guy first, like Costello. I mean you can hear Costello recycle the same lyrics through countless variations of melodies and structures. At the same time, I'm sure they all do it all sorts of ways. Van Morrison is another I've been curious about. Same with Lou Reed.

    I always tend to write the music and melodies first and then fit the lyrics in and my father always hounds me that I'm doing it backwards, but I like the discipline and restriction of trying to find the right words to fit in the melodic space/phrase. Might be dull to others, but it's at the heart and soul of what I love to do most.
     
  25. Koabac

    Koabac Self-Titled

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Just asked again and got "Don't go there." Apparently my father was very jealous of Brain's attentions towards my mom. This would have been mid-60's at the height of Wilson's powers. She'll say no more.
     
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