Bob Dylan's Basement Tapes - Where We're Currrently At (Part 7)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Mark, Nov 18, 2014.

  1. Mark

    Mark I Am Gort, Hear Me Roar Staff Thread Starter

  2. fangedesire

    fangedesire Well-Known Member

    Griffin says in his new introduction that the revised book includes "13,000 new words, and entries on 45 newly discovered Basement Tapes performances," plus there's a chapter on the Lost on the River songs.
    The bulk of the book is unchanged, though, I think.

    There is another thread with rumors of the upcoming Hawks box set, but rumors are all we have right now. We've barely discussed the Band-only basement tracks here, aside from just listing them.
     
  3. HominyRhodes

    HominyRhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    Doesn't your picture of Red Room reel #1 have a label saying 7 1/2?
    fangedesire, 16 minutes ago

    Right you are. It's a 540 meter/1800 ft. reel, and the label reads "REDROOM -- 7 1/2 --1/4 track -- A Side"

    So, this must be that pesky Reel #2 or #6 (Belshazaar) that Hudson/Haust and Heylin had differing opinions on. It appears to have "Redroom" written on one edge of the box's spine and "6." on the other edge. Why the producers of this set don't clarify these issues is very frustrating.

    [​IMG]


    EDIT: Here's the other edge (note the "6.")

    [​IMG]

    EDIT #2: That also means it's a 45 min. tape @1800 ft.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
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  4. asdf35

    asdf35 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin TX
    Indeed. Scans of all the reels should have been a top priority for the booklets....
    But I'm thinking the reel handwriting would have revealed that the box is far from Complete.

    That RedRoom Reel must have a lot of writing on the back!

    Especially for the comilers to derive a title like "Jelly Bean," that had to have been prompted
    by past documentation.
     
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  5. HominyRhodes

    HominyRhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    ...and the extra time would be for Gloria/Station, etc.
     
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  6. fangedesire

    fangedesire Well-Known Member

    This would be a project only for the insane to undertake, but I wonder what a transcription of all Dylan's comments to the band on the tapes would look like... (Some of them left off the box set.) I was struck by many of his comments before or after songs (aside from instructions on the right key or so forth) that he was extremely aware of the recording situation, and that his goal was very much to get these songs right on tape.
     
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  7. NewWarden

    NewWarden Forum Resident

    Righteous. Where do I go to register my Official Fan Theory?

    Re: All-American Boy/Sign On The Cross, Heylin in Revolution In The Air had them at the end of the Tiny Montgomery reel, but we would presumably consider that out of date info based on the cassettes before he was let into the inner circle? Wasn't the middle school math problem logic puzzle used to figure it out that Heylin said the '71 copyright tape (Henry, Bourbon Street, Santa Fe, Silent Weekend, Dress It Up, Mary Lou, What's It Gonna Be, Wild Wolf, AAB, SOTC) came from 6, 15, and 16, and since everything else was from 15-16 (16 being a combo platter that includes 15), the Boy/Sign double shot thereby represents reel 6, essentially two songs tacked onto the end of a copy of a big chunk of reel 16?

    Pretty sure he already has. http://www.rollingstone.com/music/n...ries-eyeing-blood-on-the-tracks-next-20140123
     
  8. OobuJoobu

    OobuJoobu Forum Resident

    Location:
    Yorkshire, UK
    Wondering if someone could point me towards a useful resource for the info I'm interested in please-

    I've got both the 2 and 6 disc versions, but haven't started listening yet. I'm a more than casual, but not obsessive Dylan fan, and my only previous experience of the Basement Tapes is the official 1975 album, which I'll be honest never really grabbed me.

    I'm thinking of immersing myself in this set in a way that exposes me to the material as it was heard by the major fans, by building playlists that cover each phase of bootlegging. So I'd want a playlist that contains the first set of bootlegged songs, then when I've spent some time with that, I'd want to move on to the next playlist that contains the next set of released bootlegs/official material, and so on until I'm left with a playlist that just contains the songs that are "new" to these latest releases.

    That way I'm hoping I can get a flavour of how the legend of the Basement Tapes grew among the fans. Sad, I know, but seems like it could be a fun thing to do!

    Anyway, if anyone knows of a really good resource that matches items on the new releases to their original legal/illegal release that would be really helpful.

    Thanks in advance.
     
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  9. Dflow

    Dflow Listening in the time of Dylan

    I think you and I are not alone in wanting to get our hands and ears on some of the logical playlists to fall out from of all this great music. Earlier today I started a thread hoping to extract and consolidate all of the playlists of the various incarnations this music has appeared in the past or is being enjoyed today. The below link is to the thread and has details to assemble the original 14 Song Acetate from 1967. I am hoping we start seeing others posting compilations of all varieties including some of the ones you have requested.

    Playlists - The Complete Basement Tapes Bootleg Series Vol. 11
    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-tapes-complete-bootleg-series-vol-11.394531/
     
  10. OobuJoobu

    OobuJoobu Forum Resident

    Location:
    Yorkshire, UK
    Thanks! Hopefully someone will suggest something along the lines of what we are both looking for....
     
  11. HominyRhodes

    HominyRhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    Just as a quick recap, here is a list of the tracks on the complete box set; the ones in red have not been conclusively sequenced, or located on their original reels:

    Disc: 1
    1. Edge of the Ocean
    2. My Bucket's Got a Hole in It
    3. Roll on Train
    4. Mr. Blue

    5. Belshazzar
    6. I Forgot to Remember to Forget
    7. You Win Again
    8. Still in Town
    9. Waltzing with Sin
    10. Big River (Take 1)
    11. Big River (Take 2)
    12. Folsom Prison Blues
    13. Bells of Rhymney
    14. Spanish is the Loving Tongue
    15. Under Control
    16. Ol' Roison the Beau
    17. I'm Guilty of Loving You
    18. Cool Water
    19. The Auld Triangle
    20. Po' Lazarus
    21. I'm a Fool for You (Take 1)
    22. I'm a Fool for You (Take 2)
    Disc: 2
    1. Johnny Todd
    2. Tupelo
    3. Kickin' My Dog Around
    4. See You Later Allen Ginsberg (Take 1)
    5. See You Later Allen Ginsberg (Take 2)
    6. Tiny Montgomery
    7. Big Dog
    8. I'm Your Teenage Prayer
    9. Four Strong Winds
    10. The French Girl (Take 1)
    11. The French Girl (Take 2)
    12. Joshua Gone Barbados
    13. I'm in the Mood
    14. Baby Ain't That Fine
    15. Rock, Salt and Nails
    16. A Fool Such As I
    17. Song for Canada
    18. People Get Ready
    19. I Don't Hurt Anymore
    20. Be Careful of Stones That You Throw
    21. One Man's Loss
    22. Lock Your Door
    23. Baby, Won't You be My Baby
    24. Try Me Little Girl
    25. I Can't Make it Alone
    26. Don't You Try Me Now
    Disc: 3
    1. Young but Daily Growing
    2. Bonnie Ship the Diamond
    3. The Hills of Mexico
    4. Down on Me
    5. One for the Road
    6. I'm Alright
    7. Million Dollar Bash (Take 1)
    8. Million Dollar Bash (Take 2)
    9. Yea! Heavy and a Bottle of Bread (Take 1)
    10. Yea! Heavy and a Bottle of Bread (Take 2)
    11. I'm Not There
    12. Please Mrs. Henry
    13. Crash on the Levee (Take 1)
    14. Crash on the Levee (Take 2)
    15. Lo and Behold! (Take 1)
    16. Lo and Behold! (Take 2)
    17. You Ain't Goin' Nowhere (Take 1)
    18. You Ain't Goin' Nowhere (Take 2)
    19. I Shall be Released (Take 1)
    20. I Shall be Released (Take 2)
    21. This Wheel's on Fire
    22. Too Much of Nothing (Take 1)
    23. Too Much of Nothing (Take 2)
    Disc: 4
    1. Tears of Rage (Take 1)
    2. Tears of Rage (Take 2)
    3. Tears of Rage (Take 3)
    4. Quinn the Eskimo (Take 1)
    5. Quinn the Eskimo (Take 2)
    6. Open the Door Homer (Take 1)
    7. Open the Door Homer (Take 2)
    8. Open the Door Homer (Take 3)
    9. Nothing Was Delivered (Take 1)
    10. Nothing Was Delivered (Take 2)
    11. Nothing Was Delivered (Take 3)
    12. All American Boy
    13. Sign on the Cross

    14. Odds and Ends (Take 1)
    15. Odds and Ends (Take 2)
    16. Get Your Rocks Off
    17. Clothes Line Saga
    18. Apple Suckling Tree (Take 1)
    19. Apple Suckling Tree (Take 2)
    20. Don't Ya Tell Henry
    21. Bourbon Street

    Disc: 5
    1. Blowin' in the Wind
    2. One Too Many Mornings
    3. A Satisfied Mind
    4. It Ain't Me, Babe
    5. Ain't No More Cane (Take 1)
    6. Ain't No More Cane (Take 2)
    7. My Woman She's A-Leavin'
    8. Santa-Fe
    9. Mary Lou, I Love You Too
    10. Dress it up, Better Have it All
    11. Minstrel Boy
    12. Silent Weekend
    13. What's it Gonna be When it Comes Up
    14. 900 Miles from My Home

    15. Wildwood Flower
    16. One Kind Favor
    17. She'll be Coming Round the Mountain
    18. It's the Flight of the Bumblebee
    19. Wild Wolf
    20. Goin' to Acapulco
    21. Gonna Get You Now
    22. If I Were A Carpenter

    23. Confidential
    24. All You Have to do is Dream (Take 1)
    25. All You Have to do is Dream (Take 2)

    Disc: 6
    1. 2 Dollars and 99 Cents
    2. Jelly Bean
    3. Any Time
    4. Down by the Station
    5. Hallelujah, I've Just Been Moved
    6. That's the Breaks
    7. Pretty Mary
    8. Will the Circle be Unbroken
    9. King of France
    10. She's on My Mind Again

    11. Goin' Down the Road Feeling Bad
    12. On a Rainy Afternoon
    13. I Can't Come in with a Broken Heart
    14. Next Time on the Highway

    15. Northern Claim
    16. Love is Only Mine
    17. Silhouettes
    18. Bring it on Home

    19. Come All Ye Fair and Tender Ladies
    20. The Spanish Song (Take 1)
    21. The Spanish Song (Take 2)
    22 (hidden track) 900 Miles / Confidential [FRAGMENTS]
     
  12. DmitriKaramazov

    DmitriKaramazov Senior Member

    Many Thanks, Hominy!!!
     
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  13. fangedesire

    fangedesire Well-Known Member

    One aspect of the Basement Tapes is as a song-sharing process, Dylan and the band showing each other neat things. In practice this seems to have been mostly one-way - on tape at least, Dylan is very much in charge of choosing the songs.
    Robbie Robertson has said a lot about this: "He would play songs I had never heard, and after we'd heard it or played it I would say, 'Did you write that?' And he would say no, that's an old song by blah-blah-blah, and frequently he would tell a little story of the song or what was behind the song. And that was interesting, learning some of these old-timey songs."
    "He taught me a lot about folk music. None of the guys in the Band were about folk music; we were not from that side of the tracks. Folk music was from coffeehouses, where people sipped cappuccinos. Where we played as the Hawks, nobody sipped cappuccinos, I'll tell ya. We were playing hardcore bars. Our experience was to help Bob learn to play in a band."
    "With the covers Bob was educating us a little. The whole folkie thing was still very questionable to us - it wasn't the train we came in on. He'd be doing this Pete Seeger stuff and I'd be saying, 'Oh God...' And then, it might be music you knew you didn't like, he'd come up with something like 'Royal Canal' and you'd say, 'This is so beautiful! The expression!' He wasn't so obvious about it. But he remembered too many songs too well. He'd come over to Big Pink...and pull out some old song - and he'd prepped for this. He'd practiced this, and then come out here to show us."
    (I wonder whether Robertson might be underestimating Dylan here... Dylan probably didn't need to practice these folk songs at home in order to remember them for the band! But then again, maybe he did.)

    But the band may also have shown Dylan some new things - Robertson said, "We taught him what we knew about rock & roll."
    Levon Helm wrote in his book, "I could tell that hanging out with the boys had helped Bob find a connection with things we were interested in: blues, rockabilly, R&B. They had rubbed off on him a little."
    Robertson said, "We would talk about early rockabilly records and stuff like that, and I'd get him to see that there was a vibe, a sound quality to certain records, whether it was a Motown thing or a Sun Records thing or a Phil Spector thing."
    Clinton Heylin scoffs at this idea: "The idea that Dylan would need to be tutored on the Sun sound is truly laughable." I also doubt that Dylan needed to be taught much about blues or R&B records.
    Nonetheless, I'm sure there was a musical conversation where they showed him stuff - they could easily have bonded over gospel records, a common love. (Hudson mentions them listening to gospel records constantly.) And aside from things like Sun Records or country songs, there's also a strong Curtis Mayfield influence in the Basement Tapes; so the guys were trying out various styles they liked. The tapes as we have them, though, just show Dylan's side of the conversation.
     
  14. soniclovenoize

    soniclovenoize Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    Yeah that's what I had proposed...

    Also to my ear All-American and Sign on the Cross has a soundscape and mixing that matches Reel 4, with Bob's vocals slightly overdriven, his acoustic prominent, and even a similar call-and-response motif as on Reel 4.
     
  15. soniclovenoize

    soniclovenoize Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    GM's very first post in part 1 lays that all out!
    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/bob-dylans-basement-tapes-where-were-at-currently.349311/
     
  16. cublowell

    cublowell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    For anyone wanting to pull themselves away from the new BS11 for a few minutes, but still wanting to bask in the BT-type vibe, I highly recommend checking out a new-ish band called Promised Land Sound from Nashville. These guys have The Band circa-67 thing down, while actually writing memorable songs to go with it, which not many modern bands seem able to do.

    Sample the debut album at:
    http://promisedlandnashville.bandcamp.com/

    Check out some videos at their label's official page at:
    http://www.paradiseofbachelors.com/promised-land-sound
     
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  17. DmitriKaramazov

    DmitriKaramazov Senior Member

    Anyway, what I was going to say was this:

    For a large group of songs that were never meant to be heard at all, let alone heard together, the 5 CD set is an amazing listening experience, as a cohesive set. It’s as though it was meant to be this way!
     
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  18. fangedesire

    fangedesire Well-Known Member

    Although I'm not sure your project is a wise one, this site will help you:
    http://theband.hiof.no/albums/boot_tree_with_roots.html
    This page shows the batches of songs in the order that they were revealed - the 1967 acetate, the '70s compilations, and the '86 and '91 tape-stashes. There's a lot of repetition though, since things got copied more than once.
    Of course, to truly replicate the progressing bootleg experience, you'd want to start listening to the songs in horrid mono (from vinyl, of course), proceed to muffled or distorted cassette transfers, and finish up in glorious wide stereo.
     
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  19. HominyRhodes

    HominyRhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    It's really like ten Dylan albums in one!
     
  20. TheiPodAvenger

    TheiPodAvenger Forum Resident

    Location:
    TX
    I think Heylin kinda misses the point there. Robertson specifically mentions "sound quality" -- I think Bob obviously payed a lot of attention to melodies and arrangements, but I'm not sure he thought about how his records sounded (other than the "thin, wild, mercury" thing). Then, after the BT sessions, he does John Wesley Harding, which has a very specific sound (reminiscent of Sun Records) and Nashville Skyline, which is very lush for a Dylan record. He goes from writing music to fit the words to writing words that are the music, like "Wigwam." I assume the time he spent with the Band had something to do with that.
     
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  21. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
  22. Thelonious_Cube

    Thelonious_Cube Epistrophe of Light

    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    The biggest gripe for me (other than missing tracks) isn't the resequencing or relegation of items to Disc 6 but the lack of clear information on what was where and why they chose the chronology they did. They had the reels in hand - it wouldn't have been that hard to tell us exactly which tracks were on contiguous pieces of recording tape, which came from secondary sources, etc. (though i suppose that would've meant letting us in on the extent of the missing tracks)
     
  23. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    The weird thing is they DID let us in on the extent of the missing tracks. It's very difficult to imagine Sid Griffin getting the access he required for his revised edition without Sony and/or the Dylan office's cooperation. But it COMPLETELY demolished their "Complete" claim the same week the box was released! Although I admire transparency, the logic of these circumstances still confounds me.
     
  24. HominyRhodes

    HominyRhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I agree 1000% per cent.
     
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  25. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    I'd have preferred definitive lists, too. But, hey, haven't you had fun piecing these reels together? (Rather convincingly, I'll add.)
     
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