Boiling up old German Kraut - remastering Grobschnitt live on the web...

We got started right now...

And now......

 

We're on the air right now...

Okay friends - let's start off...

Some minutes ago I launched the first step of the "public remastering" on my website. You can easily reach the chapters by scrolling down at:

http://www.eroc.de/erocs_mastering_ranch_english/eroc_s_mastering_ranch_english.php

Let me invite you all to attend and discuss your impressions and thoughts right here. I'll follow the thread and will join in if neccessary. But please don't post too much pictures and sound-examples here, we don't need to overload the forum with data files. Everything can and should be discussed in plain and gentle words.

Best wishes and lots of fun...


- Eroc

 

from Eroc's website: ...Nobody in the music biz of the 60's wanted to sound like in the 40’s or 50’s. In the 90’s no band wanted to sound like in the 70’s. The majority always headed forward using and confirming the latest technical and musical achievements.



Well, I don't want to hear a Nat King Cole record from the 60's... that it sounds like a modern record from the 90's. I would like to hear the record with the charm from that time.

 

please don't make Grobschnitt sound like anything other than a seventies band, I personally think the dawn of digital recording killed music, that's why I don't listen to much made past 1982 with a few exceptions....

 

Eroc,

I have listened to the samples you posted on your website for comparison of loudness levels.

The two metronone samples from 1989 are apparently from a CD mastered on a fairly low level, and they lack a bit midrange which results in a somewhat dull sound. But what they do have is dynamics and lifelike sound.

All other samples sound far worse in my opinion: Brickwall limiting, upper midrange added with a jackhammer. Whatever sounded lifelike on the Metronome now sounds distorted and harsh. The drums sound tinny and shrill and have no substance. And I think there is noise reduction on the 1998 Repertoire remaster; the ending of "Finale" was suspiciously free of tape hiss.

I disagree with almost everything you say in the article linked above. In particular:

Of course, an increased average loudness will seem more detailed, because all the details are zoomed in and magnified to maximum size. What is lost is the balance and dynamic range of the original recording.

My preference would be to use the sound of the Metronome release as a guideline, carefully add a small amount midrange (not more then 2 db) and bring the levels slightly up without having to compress or limit.

 

Lifting up the sound by keeping the original charme is an art. Listen to "Invisible Republic" when it comes out. Then your statement above may get stuck in your throat, believe me...

- Eroc

 

That... depends on the skills and experience of the (re)masterer. To balance the enhancement of details and the dynamic range is the art. It depends in general on the given dynamic processing of the basic mix. I'll come up with more sound-examples on this later in the discussion. We shouldn't pull out the guns too early here...

The Metronome CD release differs slightly from the o-tapes. I will point this out in the upcoming chapter.

- Eroc

 

Ha ha ha - do you know what I... wrote... personally... into the very last groove of the vinyl-LP "Aristocracy" from Phillip Boa & The Voodooclub in 1986, after I had finished the production?

"Digital kills music"...

And it's there to be read for all ages now. The record itself meanwhile is one of the greatest cult-albums for all Indie-fans. That's it. Nothing less and nothing more.

But we have to get on with 16 bits, so let's have it!


- Eroc

 

The Repertoire GS sounds rather harsh to me, I like the GG better. I fiddled around with the Metronome GS a bit and -1db@250Hz / +1db@3400Hz legen den Keller trocken -äh- drains the cellar.

Wow, I bet You have 11.000 mastering assistants now.

 

I hope we get to hear a sample of a flat transfer from the o-tape.

 

I have the Metronome CD and I always thought it was rather flat and at times too quiet: I usually have trouble discerning the intro to "Severity Town" and "Anywhere".

 

Just turn your volume up.

 

Of course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I announced a remastering, not a kiddies party...

- Eroc

 

Honestly said: the REP sounds a little harsh to me, too. But not in all parts. The final part is absolutely critical.

- Eroc

 

Eroc,

I listened to the samples. As most would probably suspect from me, I think the original Metronome CD is quite good. Lacking a bit in midrange, as others have mentioned, but certainly a very natural, more analog sound than the 1998 Rep to my ears. I have heard both the Rep and the old Metronome discs before, but never compared them directly.

As a side thought, this is really a great album from Grobschnitt. I still adore the first album the most, followed by Ballerman, but this one really shines as well and Lupo's guitar layering is brilliant!

 

Quite true!

Lupo's playing is the best.

For me, nothing beats Side 1 of Jumbo.

....except maybe Side 2 of Rockpommel's Land.

 

The "Severity Town" intro seems just a bit too quiet even when I turn it up... when I listened to the Rep release it was brought quite forward. But I agree with others that the Rep releases are a bit harsh to the ears at times.

 

I have also listened to the samples. Here is my humble assesment.

I personally like the Metronome better. As said above, whatever it may lack in clarity, it gains in vital dynamics. Too much dynamics was lost in the Repertoire. I'll hold off on commenting on eq. And surely with that fancy tape player of yours, a little more clarity seems likely to be found than whatever went on in 1989 with the tape.

Sound sample "001 B" (RPL Finale 1989 Metronome):

This particular sample never goes above -1.48 db, which is too quiet, so I experimented a little. I converted the mp3 to wav and tried two different limiter settings (I'm using Samplitude 9.02 pro-the Advanced Dynamics effect set to hard limiter, and reaction set to peak). The first I tried was -2.0 db and the second was -2.5. As little as there was happening above -2.5, I still preferred the -2.0. For example, that last loud part which brings the song to a close loses something when cut down to -2.5 db.

So whatever your flat transfer looks like, I wouldn't want to lose any of that sound that occurs past -2.0 db on the above sample.

This is assuming no compression will be taking place, which I think you said that (?)

You really can't lose if you err on the side of quite rather than loud. Anyway, that is my opinion on the loudness. And I hope you stay far, far away from that metal band sample

Dave

 

We have currently some trouble with the site's update, so nothing is to be seen there right now.

We'll fix the problem tomorrow ASAP and then I'll make an announcement here, when we're on the air again. Thanks for all your comments so far, there's much more to come, so stay tuned...


- Eroc

 

We're back on the air right now...

http://www.eroc.de/erocs_mastering_ranch_english/eroc_s_mastering_ranch_english.php

 

Okay friends - here we go again...

Some minutes ago I launched the second step of the "public remastering". You can easily reach all chapters by scrolling down at:

http://www.eroc.de/erocs_mastering_ranch_english/eroc_s_mastering_ranch_english.php

Now you can compare various releases of a track on vinyl and CD to the original master-tape!!!


Best wishes and stay tuned...


- Eroc

 

This is really interesting. I think all of these clips sound damn good except the Canadian vinyl.

But, Eroc, come on! The master tape sounds phenomenal! How can you improve upon that!? Just roll that thing with all the dynamics intact and let the world hear the original engineering that you and Conny Plank did here.

My vote is for a flat transfer of the master tape.

 

very interesting facts so far.........I like the dynamics of the metronome but it lacks some resolution...........the rep improves that but it lacks dynamics and sounds harsh on spots ( even on my crappy computer loudspeakers ) , it can only get worse with decent speakers...........

 

Exactly my thoughts. The low end response is stunning. BTW, it's the first time I listen to Grobschnitt since about 30 years. I always remembered Grobschnitt as a Heavy Rock band. It seems I was wrong.

The Repertoire compared to the o-tape is a downgrade, IMO. Do it right this time.

 

Yeah, why are you torturing us? It's very interesting actually, and pathetic I suppose. Those vinyls sound pretty bad. So much distortion on "006". "007", even with its other faults sounds better to me because I can't get past the annoying distortion on the first vinyl release. Then again, how could they not notice those pops???!! Did they even listen to it?

The first CD I am quite familiar with "008"-Metronome. I like it for the dynamics, like has been said above, but never thought much of the sound quality. Too muddy, not enough clarity...

And I'm sorry, the 1999 remaster -"009", is too brick-like. It's fun to listen to in a way, much brighter and the presence is really there compared to the Metronome, but the loss of dynamics is too much.

I played all of the samples while watching my software's correlation meter to see how the Azimuth failures you described showed up there. While still trying to learn about Azimuth problems, I won't pretend to be an expert, but it was clear that the o-tape sample was perfect-nothing at all to see, and the others showed phase problems from the Azimuth failures to a corresponding degree with the readings you reported. Please set me straight if I am interperting this wrong.

I'm sure everybody is seeing this comparison of these different samples as an exercise in futility, as the o-tapes are clearly superior in every way. I find it very interesting though.

I'd be happy if you'd just go with the o-tape as is, and sell me my damn CD already. I guess I'm afraid you're going to ruin it. Not because of you personally, not at all! Just my experience with 95% of the remasters I buy these days!!!

Regards,
Dave