Boiling up old German Kraut - remastering Grobschnitt live on the web...

Amen.

 

Indeed. Long Live Grobschnitt!!

 

Okay friends - on with the show...

Some minutes ago I launched the third chapter of the "public remastering", probably the most interesting one so far showing various results of mastering treatments. You can easily reach it by scrolling down at:

http://www.eroc.de/erocs_mastering_ranch_english/eroc_s_mastering_ranch_english.php

Now you can compare how the original tape sounds on CD as 1:1 flat transfer or with mastering treatment.


Best wishes and stay tuned...

 

Eroc,

I don't really hear any significant differences between the samples sound 013, 014 and 015; sound 013 is actually louder than sound 014. They all exhibit signs of distortion, and in the loudest passages, all the intruments just melt together instead of the three-dimensional and likelike quality of the uncompressed master.

Of course, I am just one single person, and my opinion probably doesn't matter in the big scheme, but I don't understand the logic that a remaster of an album from the 1970s has to compete with a Nickelback album in the loudness race. I am interested in different eq treatments, but digital compression or shaving peaks does only degrade the sound quality in my opinion. I do agree with you that reaching 0db for the loudest peak is desirable, though.

 

I didn't find 013 to be louder than 014 according to my peak meters.

I compared 012 to 013 to see if I'd be okay with a slight loss in dynamics for the effect you are experimenting with (loudness). 014 and 015 were too loud for me to bother with after listening to them. Especially knowing 012 was there.

Anyway, I converted them both to 32 bit floating point and put them in a virtual project so I could crank the quieter one to the same level without clipping. I like the 012. I see zero advantage to the amount of the shaving of the peaks on 013. It doesn't lend itself well for this type of music (see my Nickelback talk below).

And I have a question. How is it that the 012 has so many peaks exactly at zero if nothing was shaved off, and it was just normalized? It seems like there would only be one from the way I understand it, or at most a couple. I've never done a transfer from tape like you are doing, so I'm not sure about the results of such a process.

Regardless, 012 is as loud as would like to have it. 013 is quite a jump in loudness from 012. If you are really itching to push the loudness a little, I think at least another sample or two between 012 and 013 should be considered, because I think 013 is way too much. No more than half the increase that 013 represents at the most.

But as I've said, I really like the 012. given that so many peaks are already at zero on that one, I don't see that it could be considered too quiet.

And is it fair to compare Grobschnitt, or anything done in the 70s, to Nickelback? These days, I'm guessing that engineers go into the recording process knowing that brickwall limiting will be used in the end and they mix accordingly throughout the process. So the loudness effect isn't quite as damaging as it would be to a recording that was original mixed in the 70s applied to the same degree. I'm no expert here, I'm just making what I see are logical assumptions. Please correct me if I am misguided!

And one more note, like you've pointed out and any real Grobschnitt fan would agree, this recording is very special. Somebody pointed out on the forum recently that when music is brickwalled, it is actually lossy, such as an mp3. Rockpommel's Land deserves better in my opinion. So often, progressive rock goes against the grain of standard rock, and seeks to utilize a large dynamic range, even comparable to classical music in some cases. I think that range should be preserved for this genre. Nickelback is a different genre and completely irrelevant. The Grobschnitt fan base already exists, how much it will grow I don't know, but I feel certain it will never go away. Any new fans that come into the fold will enter the world of Grobschnitt because they like the music, not because of a loud CD.

Regards,
Dave

 

Thanks for the fast statements, Andreas and Dave - I really apprechiate your opinions The first thing I'll do today is CHECK if everything went right last night when I updated the site.

It was rather late and I'm not very familiar with all that FTP stuff and renaming files and posting links to several folders on the server. I'll just cancel the access to the links for a few hours now and check out precisely if each one is the right one and connected to the right link. And I'll post another example between the original and the first step of treatments, like you suggested.

Forgive me, I was rather tired last night after 18 hours of work...


- Eroc

 

I've just checked Your website and noticed about the updated files.
I will give the samples a proper listen at my system at home, but from what I can tell by listening to them with headphones, they are much better than the Repertoire mastering. I like the sound of the certain drums (tom-tom's ?).

BTW, what does the SH in "+ 3.5 dB / 10 k - SH 12 dB" mean? (Steve Hoffman ? Shelf High? Silly Humans... just kidding)

 

Hi Christian, the final examples are "on the air" since 14.30 GMT and now each link is correct. Hope you got these and not the old ones from last night.

SH 12 dB means "shelving" with 12 dB per octave. In German we call it "Kuhschwanzentzerrer" (cowtail)...

- Eroc

 

Eroc,

What was wrong with the samples from last night, specifically? I was switching back and forth between two computers, but I thought the descriptions matched up to the sound samples...

Dave

 

Just forget them, Dave - I worked deep into the night yesterday and was not quite secure any more if the links were correct, if the sounds were exactly the same like in my systems and if the MP conversion was done properly (sometimes my system switches from Fraunhofer to Lame and I don't notice it). Just refer to the last update and everything will be fine.

Chapter 4 concerning NR is already done, but I'll wait a few days until we got more opinions on the treatments.

Best wishes!


- Eroc

 

Eroc, greetings from south-western Germany (Karlsruhe).

I'm not into Grobschnitt at all (although after reading all of this, I might well be soon), but I just wanted to say that what you're doing here is a great idea and testament to the spirit of the SH Forums.

I'm following closely and for me, personally, this thread is a highlight of this forum at the moment ... no intention of devaluing anything else that is posted here daily ... actually every darn second

Just wanted to let you know that people like me are also lurking ... I'm up in the rafters, second row, next to the other three members who continuously try to elbow their way to the front.

 

Hi Eroc, I've just listened to the samples at my system at home, and here are my impressions:

The EQ'd sample is an improvement over the o-tape, exept for the low end response. It sounds a little artificial in places. Maybe a broader slope with less gain would be a better choice.

The compression is not very obvious to me, it neither hurts or helps the sound. In a case of doubt I can live without it. The same goes for the stereo-spread.

The last sample (different tool) is a tricky one. At first it sounds more relaxed and more pleasing than the other samples, but the further I listened, the more diffuse it sounded till it got sounding annoying. Not my cup of tea.

 

Hi Chris, back in town and overloaded with work I'll use a coffee-break for some words. First of all thank you for the judgement...

A good idea - I already have tried several ways "down there". The problem is (was) that we recorded on 30 AES and did the stereo-master on 30 AES, too, so beyond 40 Hz there's nothing left and @ 40 Hz the sounds are quite weak. It's the old problem of magnetic tensions at higher tape-speed...

I would HIGHLY recommend that you listen again carefully. The compression brings up the details, even in the very first example. It's that kind of algorithms I normally use for classical stuff and piano. And also the spread opens up the thing in an amazing way. Just check it on headphones...

That's what the industry needs: sounds that catch the people in first place and later become annoying, so that people throw away the CD and buy the next one...

Let's wait for some more statements, especially about the last example.

- Eroc

 

Cheers back to the city of the German High Court, which doesn't raise a good memory in my head, since the desaster of my suitcase against Universal Music a few years ago...

Thanks a lot. We all need some fresh butter on the bread from time to time, or...?

Keep on rockin' - everything works out if you let it!



- Eroc

 

Err, now my interest is perked. You went head-to-head with Universal?

Any links around here or elsewhere where I could read up on this (or a very brief summary from you)?

P.S.: Should you ever dare venture here again, I'll invite you for a wonderful cool glass of good wine (or two) from the region(s) and show you what the city has to offer. All those civil servants up at the high court are NOT what this city is about (especially if you go by all the annoying cops circling the place 24 hours a day). In case you have any more major supreme court cases up your sleeve, I'll show up with megaphone and support banners. Just let me know.

Now, end of thread crap and back to regular programming.

 

Here you are:

http://www.eroc.de/eroc_deutsch/eroc_deutsch.php

Just scroll down the page and enjoy! You haven't heard about that? Well - even Spiegel and German TV were invoved in that evil game...

I was guided into the deeper secrets of "Baden Wine" by Franz Schwörer in Durbach many years ago. He was the Godfather of the Baden winegrowers. I'm near Worms/Grünstadt in summer with my family for a few days. Maybe I'll take you by the word...

- Eroc

 

I listened to the new samples and took some notes...

012 – (Straight from o-tape, no EQ, no compression). Nobody will come for your head if you use this one, but I think eq tweaks are in order.

013 – I prefer this non-compressed sample over all of the compressed ones.
As for the EQ, I think it is mostly fantastic, but also wonder if it is a little too much. (not very helpful, am I?). The frequencies you chose to adjust were very well chosen. I tried others, just for fun (applied to the 012 sample) as I was wondering if it still needed more midrange, and it didn’t work out so well….

I agree with Christian that the bass might be a little heavy handed. I tried reducing the db and adjusting the q (again, using the 012 sample of course), but nothing seemed to work as I wanted. I don’t think there is a perfect solution to this.

I’m thinking of what a mix of 012 and 013 would sound like, (perhaps after making an adjustment to your 50hz setting). If you could play the 012, and then bring in the new one until it seems like not too much and not too little of an adjustment to the original. Just an idea, not sure if it would work out. I’d rather things be under-adjusted than over-adjusted, that is for sure.

I’m currently experiencing a little fatigue from listening to the same sample over and over. So with regards to this sample, it’s very possible I don’t know what I’m talking about anymore.

014 - This amount of compression is a lot better than 015 and 016, but the compression thickens things unnaturally for me. I am using the lead guitar as a reference and I don’t like the way it sounds thicker with the added compression.

015 - Too compressed, I feel a smothered in volume, this would be my least favorite if not for 016

016 - I am least fond of this sample. I hear too much "breathing" from the compression, which distracts from the even flow of the music for me.

017 - This compression sounds better than the rest to me, more musical maybe? But still I'd rather do without it, as it sounds like the lead guitar is a little buried in the mix now.

I don’t have any thoughts on the stereo spread. Since I don’t like the compression, I didn’t dwell on trying to hear how it affected the signal.

So there is my humble opinion. Feel free to print it out and light it on fire.

I hope you won’t move onto the next phase too soon. I’d really like to hear from more people about these samples. And maybe I’d also like to listen to them again with fresh ears.

 

Oh, by the way, why is 013 so loud? I EQd the original (012) with your settings, and it didn't increase that much in volume. What happened to all of those peaks?

 

Quick response to that one, Dave (thanks for the detailled comments above, will get back to you later on this) - if we add here +3 and there +1.5 and over there +3.5 dB, we all in all are increasing the electrical level. And that makes it sound louder...

The peaks are still there, but that's my secret...


- Eroc

 

If I may be allowed to thread-crap one more time.

I was completely oblivious to the case (although I do read the cited publications regularly) but none of it surprises me a single bit. I studied law (yeah, I know ...) before I became a teacher (yeah, I know ...) and one reason why I quit was that I noticed the stiffness of it all. Somehow I had the impression that anyone involved with the law had a tendency to turn his/her brain off (no insult intended to any lawyers around here) when it came to matters prone to massive lobbying.

Just take the rather recent (political) decision to charge a TV fee for cell phones and any computers connected to the Internet. That one washes another trillion into the pockets of a few decision makers (have they ever made a decision?) in the media and I'll drop dead if any court throws that fee out. It's a bunch of old geezers deciding on topics that they know too little about (hell, most of them wouldn't be able to find the Power-On button on any of these devices ... let alone be able to use any of them).

Was that "Durbach" or "Durlach". If it was the latter, I think you might have had an excellent guide!

Seriously now, if you are in the area, I'd love to sit down with you over a good glass of "Grau-" or "Weißburgunder" and chat about God, the world, the judicial branch and just good music. I'm a drummer, but I assure you that I'm quite normal.

Hit me up if you'd like. BTW: I'm in "Wörth am Rhein" just across from Karlsruhe, at the southern-most tip of the Rhineland-Palatinate. Send me a PM if/when you're in the area and interested.

[definitely the end of thread-crapping ... all else via PM).

 

Yes - and I had to learn it the hard way...

When I'm speaking of Durbach, I'm speaking of Durbach... Just look-a here:

http://www.weingut-schwoerer.de/start.html

I'm a drummer, too, so things may be feasible. I'll keep it in mind and PM you - if...

Now, ON WITH THE COUNTDOWN

- Eroc

 

Hi Eroc,

so I did it again. My favorites are Sound 013 and Sound 016. I have the impression, the compression slightly narrows the sound and the stereo spread makes it open again, kind of a counter-effect. But again, to me the stereo spread is very subtle when listening with loudspeakers.

I understand what You mean about the details. The piano and the organ is more prominent and the cymbal slapping at the end is more impressive. On the other hand.... the Sound 013 has a smooth sound I really appreciate and when listening to the whole album it might be more ear-friendly.

I think it's a case of "Ente oder Trente" (either … or): Sound 013 with just a little EQ to preserve a certain smooth sound or Sound 16 with some tweaking that isn't over the top and brings some edge to the sound.

P.S. I can't get the lead-guitar line out of my head. Is there a cure?.

 

Thanks again to you, Dave, Jason, Chris and Andreas, Jeff, Dok and Mike and all you others for taking your time to listen and write down your comments. This is very apprechiated and helpful for me. I just want to gather a few more suggestions over this "long" weekend and then look at the results in detail. We are moving towards 3.000 clicks now in this thread and let me encourage all you others out there, to join in and point out your opinion, if you like. Let it flow from your hearts, lads - we don't bite...

All the best, have a nice weekend - and stay tuned!


- Eroc

 

I really like sample 13, the light equalization really brought out a lot of detail. Yes, it's loud compared to the flat 1:1 but is considerably more dynamic and a nicer listen than sound 12 (and especially the original Metronome release). And it wasn't caustic like the Repertoire sample you provided.

The bass in sample 15 was more pronounced than the others, most noticeable around 1:05, it didn't feel "right".

I think sample 16 brought out the piano chords (after the arpeggios) a bit too much, they seemed to be too overbearing. Sample 17 seemed to have the fullest piano sound between 1:05 and 1:20, though.

 

Hmmm... this isn't going to happen is it Eroc? Given at least where you are going with the public input and samples you are putting up; we haven't gotten to the NR bits yet! Or are these three already 'secretly' remastered and heading off to the printers as it were??