Bowie – "Heroes": Blind listening test

FWIW, two weeks have passed, I've done this test again, and things have changed a bit!

I'm still preferring the 3 samples I've chosen before, but in a different order: it's now B, C and then F.

I really like the bass and the EQ on B: I can concentrate more on Davis/Murray this way, and I really enjoy listening to the album while concentrating on its rhythm section. I'm less frustrated by the "busy mix" of this album now that the rhythmic part is more evident (for example: I never really heard the bass line in "Heroes" before, but now with B I hear it and it's quite groovy!). I really enjoy the album more with this EQ, so I have a big preference for B.

C has a good bass as well, but not as nice as B, and it sounds quite muffled, overall. Like a high-gen tape. Especially evident on The Secret Life of Arabia. I still could live with it, though, but the tape just sounds much better on B.

F comes third, and I'm not sure I like it that much, now. Better tape than C, but I just miss the bass in the EQ.

All the other samples feel unlistenable, now that I've heard this bass thing. It really changes the way I listen to this album, in a good way.

So, it's mostly a big preference for B, with C being enjoyable but not as good.

 

Hi everyone,

The new test for Diamond Dogs is up:
Bowie - Diamond Dogs: Blind listening test

The Young Americans and The Man Who Sold the World threads now have results:
Bowie's Young Americans blind listening test (results page 5; post #115)
Bowie – The Man Who Sold the World: Blind listening test (results page 3; post #66)

As for "Heroes" and Scary Monsters, they're still open, but the results will appear "soon" (in case the new test brings some new votes to them):
Bowie – "Heroes": Blind listening test
Bowie – Scary Monsters: Blind listening test

Thanks!

 

I begin with the four that seemed quite bad to my ears (via Sennheiser HD650) :

E is too thin, too shrill, narrowed on the bright side
D is also thin in a way : the sound is narrowed, dull, tightened like in a tin box, same defaults as E but on the bass side this time
A is very unpleasant, compressed and wrong. Really the worse of all
C the sound is very distinct, clear, but everything seem at the same volume, something gone really wrong somewhere

Then I was left with B & F, and my choice varied from one song to another, but overall :

F as good clarity too, and on contrary to C there is some breathing pleasant air. It sounds very clear and detailed but the bright tonality may reveal itself less pleasant on the long term than the bassy tonality of B

B is quite lacking in clarity, but it has a good global feeling, a good atmosphere on it, and is the only one to have a really nice bass, and "Heroes" (the whole album) needs bass !

So my choice is B, followed closely by F. It may depends of your system (if it's bass heavy or bright) and of course your tastes


(I read the comments (after having made my choice) and I'm surprised how many people think C is the RCA WG. I don't think so - but we'll see )

 

Did I miss something or have the results been posted elsewhere?

 

No, I just need a bit of time and motivation. Been a bit busy lately...

 

Just tell us which samples are which, please, if you don't have the motivation to do a full commentary. I thought it would be a poll open for a week or two. Now, many months later I am still wondering which are which... ;o

 

Hey, Tsomi? Thank you so much for doing all of the work to post these samples.
But it's been a while now. In this case, a think it would actually prove well to list the sources now.
We all know that the Japan for US will sound better overall, that the German will have more bass, and that the Japan for Japan will lose. But seriously, thank you and I'm awaiting the reveal.

 

>> Results!

(Sorry for the considerable delay on this one. New job, new activities and priorities, and some procrastination...)

Poll results

Sample A: Ryko AU20 (5 votes, 4.7%)
Sample B: Parlophone 2017 (14 votes, 13.9%)
Sample C: RCA WG for EUR (21 votes, 19.6%)
Sample D: EMI 1999 (5 votes, 4.7%)
Sample E: Ryko/EMI 1991 (10 votes, 9.3%)
Sample F: RCA JPN for US (31 votes, 29.0%) FIRST
("I can't decide": 21 votes, 19.6%)

"Per-remaster series" results

Original RCA CDs: 52 votes
Ryko/EMI 1991/AU20: 15 votes
Parlophone 2017: 14 votes
EMI 1999: 5 votes

Detailed results

• The original RCA Japan for USA (PCD1-2522) CD from the 80s comes first, approaching a third of the votes.
  • Often praised for having the "best balance", a "really nice top end", a "nice sense of detail", sounding "natural", or having "smooth vocals".
    
  • Others find it "a bit thin", "a little sharp", or even "bright".
  • Note: this particular master is the only one that's missing the opening "noises" of the Beauty and the Beast track. Maybe you care about this, maybe you don't, or maybe you'll paste it from another source.
• The RCA WG for Europe (PD 83857) CD from the 80s comes second.
  • Some like its "dark" sound, its balance, its "pleasing warmth". Some people find it to be the "most dynamic" master, with a "smooth", "natural" analogue sound.
  • This warm sound is too much for some of you, who find it EQ'd to the point of sounding "really muffled" and "muddy". Some say the EQ is just excessively warm, some actually think an inferior tape might have been used.
• The Parlophone 2017 remaster is third.
  • Please note that the first three masters received a comparable number of votes (although the RCA JPN still won over this Parlophone). You'll probably want to match this with your own personal preferences.
  • The consensus is that some additional processing took place on this one, and it probably sounds different from the album you may be used to. Some people like this change: calling this master more "attractive" and more "engaging", with a "strong and nice bass", which gives the album a "nice oomph".
  • But then, others think too much is going on, calling this new master "compressed", "congested", "cluttered" with a "boomy bass", sounding "agressive", "artificial" and "fatiguing".
  • Note: the first digital and analogue versions of this Parlophone master have audible dubious processing going on the "Heroes" title track (sounding like a big volume drop right in the middle of the song). Parlophone issued replacements, but some problems on other tracks remain. Again, maybe you'll care, maybe you won't.
• The Ryko/EMI 1991 remaster is the fourth one.
  • This is only 10% of the votes, but it still received some love.
  • Some like its "clean" sound, with a "pleasing dynamic range".
  • But the usual Ryko EQ complaints are here, calling it "shrill", "bass shy", "thin", and "cold". Too bad for the (usual) EQ problems, as I didn't see any complaint about any other aspect of this Ryko.
• The Ryko AU20 and EMI 1999 remasters come last.
  • They didn't receive much votes or love, so I'm taking the easy path and I just make a single entry for them.
  • They received a lot of bad words: "shrill", "awful", "harsh", "painful", "dull", so I don't think they can be recommended.
  • The only positive word I found about them was for the EMI 1999 master, where its EQ is so different that it can be something "interesting" to hear. More as a curiosity, I guess.

Conclusion

The RCA JPN for US can be called "the best balance" between all these options (but $$, and it's missing some notes from the first track). The RCA WG for EUR has a stronger personality, with a very "warm" analogue sound that you may love or find "muffled" (some $$, again). The Parlophone 2017 didn't receive as many complaints as on the infamous (and closed, for good reasons) ANCIANT thread, but the new EQ/compression isn't transparent and changes the feeling of the album, so it's either going to be a "nice oomph" or a really "fatiguing", "boomy" experience for you (the Parlophone will be cheap, but note again that it has some serious audio glitches). The Ryko has the usual complaint of a bass-shy EQ, but it's maybe a good option if you can EQ it to your tastes. Don't buy the EMI 1999, and the AU20 is really not worth its high price.

The first three options have a similar number of votes, and a comparable amount of people voted "I can't decide", so I'm not sure there's anything more that a compromise on the RCA JPN for US. Nobody called any digital master of "Heroes" an audio marvel, by the way. Is any LP version significantly better, or are the original mix and master just this way?

Thanks everyone!

 

Yes, the original mix ain't exactly an audiophile wonderland. Visconti isn't exactly know for sonic masterpieces to begin with (that would be Ken Scott, thank you), and "Heroes" has the added burden of seeing a bunch of its audio processed thru the Eventide Harmonizer, a really early digital gadget which gives both Low and this record their characteristic sound. It - and similar gadgets - were heavily used in the '80s, and are responsible for much of the widely-loathed "'80s sound" as well. So a certain thinness, shrillness and brittleness is to be expected, on top of Visconti's usual somewhat muddled, loud production, a sound he's always consistently preferred and has returned to over and over again (see in particular his post-1999 work with Bowie - Heathen is a better album than hours, but it sure doesn't sound as good).

 

Interesting. I can only assume that it's a sound that Bowie also favoured. Then again maybe he just wasn't that concerned with such 'details'. Having just watched an interview from 1990 where he was asked about This is not America and replied with an anecdote about Georgia Moroder I suspect that may well be the case.

 

Likely another example of preferring the feel of something over some sort of technical perfection.

 

@Tsomi Thank you for posting the results and analysis. Are these the first of your Bowie listening results that have been posted or have I missed any others?

 

Well, keep in mind, when we're talking about the sound of something, we aren't necessarily talking about technical perfection. I'm sure Heathen, The Next Day, and Blackstar are all technically fine recordings. They were done on modern equipment using modern consoles and modern mics and so forth. The problems with these records aren't technical. They're stylistic choices. Bowie and Visconti both favored a very harsh, dense, loud, muddled sound (Diamond Dogs was far more lo-fi than any of its predecessors, dating back to the late '60s, and it was self-produced). Frankly, I never thought that sound served Bowie or his material particularly well across all of his recordings, although it worked on Dogs, on Low and on "Heroes". Unfortunately it got deployed on a lot of other Bowie records, and it grates. Ultimately I think it detracts from a good number of them to one degree or another, but clearly it was intentional.

 

Thank you for the kind words!

There are similar results for The Man Who Sold the World here:
Bowie – The Man Who Sold the World: Blind listening test

Young Americans was also done here, but that was the first test and I could improve it:
Bowie's Young Americans blind listening test

And I'm writing the results to the Scary Monsters test at the moment...

 

Well, the Japan for US RCA beats out the supposedly superior WG RCA again!

Tsomi, thank you, again, so much for the work and time you took to make these samples, lists and great summaries. You're truly appreciated. And I'm sure David would have appreciated you as well.

 

It's really too bad that the Ryko requires some pain in the ass adjustment in Adobe Audition, because, for one thing, it's smooth, dynamic, and Abdulmajid is a perfect ending after Secret Life Of Arabia. That track is a huge improvement after the already wonderful original. If you have it on All Saints, try it.

After adjustments, the Ryko would beat all of em.

 

That's been my impression for years as well, in spite of the early NoNoising. One of these days, I'll get around to actually tweaking the EQ.

 

The Ryko used No Noise? What??

The Ryko vinyl of his earlier works doesn't sound like it either. And the Ryko vinyl of Live is by far the best I've heard on a Linn system with Lyra Titan cartridge compared to the original RCA vinyl and cd. Listen to Moonage Daydream.

 

I dig the Eventide Harmonizer. Very cool piece of gadgetry. It's available in plug-in form now and you can still hear it (or its digital equivalent) used on vocals and guitars in some new music.

 

Yup. One of the earlier CD's to use noise reduction. Might not have been NoNoise, although I think that was definitely used for their second Au20 or whatever remasters.

 

Where do you have proof of this?

 

No proof, but I recall reading about it 15 years or so ago, maybe longer. I'm pretty sure the AU20 masters used NoNoise - there are several references to that on the 'net. Not sure what was done in '90, might have been some kind of digital noise gate. I found a couple of references online regarding the 1990 masters to folks reporting that the hiss drops out during quiet passages on the Rykos, only to appear again when the music gets louder. That's a common and fairly unobtrusive trick to tame a hissy recording (the Rykos are suspiciously quiet for such old material, especially in the fainter passages). You could do that in the analog domain as well...

Google "Toby Mountain, Ryko, remaster" and wade thru the hits. There might be an interview with him out there somewhere.

 

NoNoise was the hot new mastering trend in audio back in the early 1990s, it was almost a fad. It was only after a few years that audiophiles started realizing its downsides.

 

Noise reduction...or noise shaping? It's possible I'm missing something, but the gold discs *did* use SBM noise shaping, and the comments I've seen from people seem to be confusing that with noise reduction.

"Technical Notes
Mastering

This 24k Gold CD was mastered from the original 15ips stereo master tapes. A specially calibrated Sony APR-3000 analog 2-track machine was used for the transfer. Equalization was done in the analog domain using a Troisi Series 200 Equalizer. All equalization was patterned after the original EQ used for the earlier 16-bit Rykodisc release. No limiting or compression whatsoever was used in the audio chain.

The analog to digital conversion was done by a Troisi Digital Companion TM 20 bit A/D Converter. The 20 bit digital audio was then stored on a Macintosh computer hard disk and subsequently edited using the Sonic System TM.

Once the program was completed and in final form, the 20 bit audio was transferred through a Sony Super Bit Mapping TM filter which "noise shaped" the program to 16 bits, while maintaining the optimum signal to noise ratio of the 20 bit audio. This 16 bit "noise shaped" PCM master was then used at the compact disc facility for replication of the 24k gold discs.

Dr. Toby Mountain/Northeastern Digital Recording, Inc."

Bowie Ryko Gold Discs, Etc.

 

I never got noise shaping and noise reduction confused - I knew about noise shaping since Sony's SBM CD's bowed in the early '90s.

This cropped up in a search of the forum, in a post from 2006:

The other thing that bothered me (back on topic ): I had the Ryko/EMI '91 version panned to the left. The Virgin/EMI '99 was panned to the right. Every time a snare drum occured, this appeared to be louder from the left channel. This seemed to indicate that a noise gate of sorts (or an "expander") seems to be in action on the Ryko version, gently reducing levels of treble when it is "dormant", so to speak, and giving it full reign when it is at it's fullest. Hmmm ... an interesting way of reducing hiss. But one that would make me think it is better not to bother.

David Bowie Ryko CDs

This mentions a noise gate, but not NoNoise itself, in conjunction with the Ryko masters.

This might have come up at the old Bowie Teenage Wildlife website, which would likely be where I read about it - or ran across to a link to an article or interview about it - back in the late '90s or early 2000s.

I'd actually be surprised if some kind of noise reduction wasn't used during that period - it was new and hot. Something must have been used on the Rykos, because they're astoundingly quiet in the softer passages - quieter I suspect than the high res remasters that recently came out. I'll try to do an a/b comparison soon and maybe pump the results to YouTube or something...