Bowie – Scary Monsters: Blind listening test

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Tsomi, Oct 13, 2017.

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  1. Tsomi

    Tsomi Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    David Bowie – Scary Monsters... and Super Creeps (1980): Blind listening test

    (Samples from the latest Parlophone remaster included!)

    [​IMG]

    Previous threads: 1. Young Americans (votes are closed; see post #4 for a correct download link). 2. The Man Who Sold the World (still open to votes!), 3. "Heroes" (still open to votes!).
    Next thread: Don't know yet which album to choose.

    tl;dr: FLAC samples below, please listen, vote on your own, and tell us why you made this choice.

    >> Goals

    You'll find below a link to a ZIP archive containing various FLAC samples of this album, from most of its existing digital masters. They are mostly around 35 seconds each (fair use), but they try to capture some “interesting” segments to help you make some fair-enough comparisons.

    To avoid bias, you don't know which masters are included, and you don't know which master you are listening to, apart from some letters (A, B, C...) which were randomly attributed. The samples come from straight EAC rips, and were only “hard” level-matched with foobar2000's ReplayGain tool (note: one particular sample here required additional processing in order to be included). When there are enough votes, I'll tell you which sample is which.

    >> What to do

    Download the archive and extract it, concentrate and then listen to the various samples with your prefered setup. Listen track per track, or sample per sample – really, just use your favourite method. Then, chose your favourite master(s), vote, and please also tell us why you like it. The more precise (e.g., a particular instrument at a particular moment) the better.

    It may also be interesting to know how much better your favourite master is, compared to the others. Is the difference that big or is it quite subtle? This could help people in case your favourite master happens to be rare and $$. Your second favourite master might be 90% as good, and much cheaper.

    Please don't read the other replies before voting! Really. There's nothing “right” or “wrong” with your own particular choice, nothing to check, no need to vote like somebody else, nothing. We don't want bias, we want you to tell us what you really prefer. Please!

    >> Download

    The samples are hosted on Google Drive.

    You might need to move your cursor on the upper side of the web page to see a download button appear near its upper-right corner (look for an arrow). PM me if you still have troubles downloading this.

    Blind Test - Scary Monsters.zip (125 MB) (if this link is dead, please look for a newer post of mine below!)

    >> Spread the word!

    The more votes this gets, the better. The poll will remain open as long as it's necessary, in order to reach a meaningful number of votes (usually a few weeks). So please help me and spread the word! Thanks!
     
  2. Electric Warrior

    Electric Warrior Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    I picked E, but I also liked C and D.
     
  3. fatwad666

    fatwad666 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Fat City, USA
    First choice C, second choice E.
     
  4. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    Very interesting! I was especially looking forward to this one. Thanks so much, Tsomi!

    I burned the CD and have listened ot the whole thing over my speakers, and then just got finished listening again through several samples from the title track and "Ashes to Ashes." Before I vote, I want to do the same thing with "Scream Like a Baby" and "Teenage Wildlife." But I wanted to put down a few thoughts I've been developing thus far.

    First, one bit of (hopefully constructive) criticism about the samples--I kind of thought that "Fashion" was a bit of a missed opportunity, because half the sample was of the percussive intro. Once the actual song part began, it would cut off before I had any time to develop a real sonic impression. I'm suspecting this was done purposely to isolate those intro effects, but I tend to focus on other things when evaluating, so it made it harder for me. Similarly, I wasn't sure the cool outro to "Ashes to Ashes" was the best part of that song to choose, because its presentation is more "spacey" than the rest of the song and therefore tougher to judge sonically for me. Still, the other samples seemed well chosen, and I'm very grateful for the work that went into this!

    Now my initial thoughts. Right off the bat, two of the samples stood out (in a generally negative way) from the rest: C and F. I'm almost certain that C is from the same source as the C from the "Heroes" blind test, with the same extreme warmth to the point of being muffled. As in that test, there were some moments when it worked, but most of the time felt like there was something covering my speakers. At the other end of the spectrum, sample F had a truly terrible, strident top end, not entirely unlike that of sample D from the "Heroes" comparison, but even more noticeable to me in this comparison.

    So when listening back a second time, I generally ignored C and F as outliers, and tried to focus on the differences among the remaining samples. I had to compare different samples to one another out of order, because the order would affect what I noticed about the sound (for example, I didn't notice at first how relatively warm D sounded, because anything would sound rather bright immediately following C).

    My sense of A is that it has a somewhat artificially "vivid" sound--I would relate it to the Technicolor process in film, where the colors are all bright and vivid, but almost too much so. This is the sample that I suspect most casual listeners would prefer, because all the colors sort of stand out, yet its artificially would become mildly annoying over the course of a listening session. The only digital version of this album I've heard on my speakers before is the redbook layer of the 2003 SACD, and this reminds me of how I've experienced that. This "technicolor" impression was relatively consistent across all the tracks.

    Sample B was kind of odd, as my impressions tended to vary somewhat across the tracks. I think I would characterize it as somewhat drily textured and midrange heavy. On "Ashes to Ashes" it sounds terrible to me--kind of harsh and hashy, with some of the textural quality I dislike about the vinyl version from the Parlophone box set. I didn't notice this quality (at least to that extent) on any of the other tracks, though, so this is a case where I wonder if it would have sounded better on the main section of the song as opposed to the spacey outro.

    Sample D was one that didn't stand out in any particularly positive or negative way on the first listen through the tracks, so I had to make some careful comparisons to samples A, B, and E to try to determine its characteristics. After doing this with both "Ashes to Ashes" and the title track, my sense is that it is fine, but perhaps a little on the dull side of neutral. Not nearly as muddy as C, but just sort of washed out, as if sourced from a very high generation tape.

    Finally, I'm leaning toward sample E as my favorite within this group. Like D, it didn't stand out in the initial run, but on careful comparison to the other non-outliers, it seems to be the most naturally balanced: not as spotlit as A, nor as dry and slightly harsh as B, and with more life than D. On the title track, it is the only sample that really sounds "right" to me.

    I'll post more once I've listened to the side two tracks more carefully.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
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  5. Tsomi

    Tsomi Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    Wow, now that's what I call constructive criticism, indeed! Thank you for this, really.

    Comments like this motivate me in doing more threads, really (although there are 3 open threads at the moment, so I'll let them breathe a bit). Thank you.

    Fair point! But that's the first time I use an intro or an outro in my tests, and I'd like this to happen once in a while. There are some things to be heard in them, and I (personally) think that the opening pulses of Fashion have something really interesting to compare... Moreover, it's (IMO) much easier to concentrate on every particular instrument in these two samples where there isn't much stuff going on, while the other samples are most abstract since it's more of a wall of sounds. This way, you can have different approaches in your way of doing comparisons for this album (overall feeling vs. particular sound). That's why I included Moss Garden in the test for "Heroes" as well. I tried to compensate this lack of evident "meat" in these two samples, by including one more song and (a bit) longer samples, this time. The album is quite dense and long, so we needed a bit more music to compare, anyway.

    But, most of the time, I try to capture some parts of the song where there's a dynamic shift, or an interesting series of sound (e.g. the drums in Blackout), or a good mixture of vocals and music. I hope the sum of all the kind of samples I can include (because there's fair use, and bored listeners after that), for every album, makes everyone mostly happy.

    BTW, if anyone thinks of a particular part of a song (from an album I haven't done yet) has a very interesting part to compare, please don't hesitate to PM me.

    And you will also notice that each sample starts at the very same moment, has the exact same length, but doesn't always stops with the same sound. That's because there are some speed differences between every master, for this particular album (quite evident on Fashion, IMO).
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  6. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    OK, having listened to the remaining tracks, I'm ready to vote, and it is definitely E.

    I noticed that "Scream Like a Baby" sounded brighter than the other tracks across the board, to a somewhat annoying extent. This was one track where C sounded at its best, and during the verse portion I was thinking it might be the winner for this particular track. However, it sounded too congested for me once the chorus kicked in. Samples A, B, and D did not mate well with the increased high end here--they all took on some of the usual characteristics of sample F for this one track. Only sample E sounded pretty good on this one.

    With "Teenage Wildlife," it was pretty much the same as with the title track, with each sample sounding as I described in the previous post. So I feel pretty confident in voting for E this time. Nothing else was a particularly close second, though if forced to choose a second it would be either B or D (and if B is what I suspect it is, this is a big surprise to me).

    Thanks again, Tsomi, for this great opportunity!
     
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  7. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    Thanks, Tsomi. I completely understand the thought process that went into the choices--they make sense. I guess I just have a bias toward the "big picture" in these sorts of judgments, so I gravitate toward approaches that best let me do that. I sort of think that perhaps focusing on individual sounds may be something that leads mastering engineers to make some unfortunate choices, as an EQ that sounds great on an isolated instrument might not sound so good on a more complex "wall of sound," as you put it.

    But that is not especially relevant in the end, as your overall set of selections made it possible for me to get a real sense of the different characters of each source. Thanks again for doing this!
     
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  8. LCM

    LCM Active Member

    Location:
    Man
    once again, for whatever reason, the experience is globally painful (now that i had confirmation of who is who in the Heroes and TMWSTW BD through PM, I can confirm that my ripped files sound much better, for whatever reason) ; nevertheless, I've been consistent so far... Here, I picked F and was surprised to see it's leading while nobody above claimed to have pick it
     
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  9. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    Wow--I'm surprised it's leading as well, as it is dead last on my system. Just curious--are you listening through speakers or headphones? [EDIT: it's also interesting that we voted the same way on the "Heroes" test, so I'm surprised to see such a stark difference this time].
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  10. LCM

    LCM Active Member

    Location:
    Man
    large speakers, 36 cm tightly controlled LF, 1200 watts total, SOTA 80's/90 : old but still sounding great i think. As I said, those BD sound painful, and like the previous Bowie's BD, I took it only once : I might be wrong but in previous cases I picked what turned to be the winner and have been consistent with a bold (though respectful) opinion I made in my very first post on this site
     
  11. Tsomi

    Tsomi Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    I can send you the raw samples before I apply ReplayGain with foobar, but I don't think I'm doing anything wrong, honestly... Either I do mess up (but no one else complains for the moment), or foobar has a bug, or maybe you're used to the loudest masters, and just don't like them being leveled down?

    If you want the raw samples, and manage to level them in a way that's as fair (i.e same perceived loudness) but which sounds better to everyone, why not, after all.
     
  12. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    Cool. Just curious, since I either didn't see or don't remember your first post--what is the bold but respectful opinion with which you are being consistent?

    In any event, the only reason I am surprised is that the version we both voted for (F) in the Heroes poll sounds extremely different to me than the F in this poll--this F sounds to me most similar to the Heroes D that's been coming in last in that poll. To me they both have a strident top end, though I find it even more prominent here. The F in the Heroes poll, on the other hand, was one of the warmer choices on my system. I assume you are hearing things differently?
     
  13. LCM

    LCM Active Member

    Location:
    Man
    Thank you Tsomi, turns out that i've been with the majority so far and, while I have to keep my promise not to reveal who is who, allow me to say that I did not go for the loudest master. I don't think I'm the only one to complain (i read things like (I quote from memory) all undynamic, A sounds like tv speaker, etc). I don't know Foobar. I don't pretend I can better your files ; I've never done such thing ; I would rather use RX4 though...
    Thanks again for building up this tests that I enjoy taking and following ;

    If my advice can help you enjoying more your files : nowadays I only play ripped or downloaded files and I use HQPlayer that I fondly recommend (and no I'm not a Hi res absolutist ; If I compare (note that through HQP I turn everything, including RB, DSD 128 ; hence differences/ benefits that a SACD player would introduce vs a CD player disappear)the RB and the SACD layer of a MFSL I'd prefer the SACD but based on details that occur here and there not as if I would find it's day and night all the way through.
     
  14. LCM

    LCM Active Member

    Location:
    Man
    In my first post (#4198 )I wrote :

    "Ie some tracks on the nowadays mighty expensive (they have been as cheap as they are cheap looking) WG RCA Heroes sound like cassette to my ears. Rob, the guy in charge (Pick 'n' Mixed: David Bowie RCA CDs (1984) ) did a great labor of love but I can’t rule out he simply was not equipped to appreciate digital back then(ie to listen to music I reboot my Mac on Windows server, minimum server configuration, and it makes a huge difference SQ wise) and succeeded in getting a sound close to vinyl, that some here continue to praise as the golden etalon, but that’s not necessarily the ultimate.


    As of the RCA I mostly prefer the JPN."
     
  15. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    Based on the results so far, I would tend to agree with you very much (except for the "sound close to vinyl" part--my vinyl does not sound anything like the Heroes sample to which I assume you refer--your reference to a [lower-than-average quality] cassette sounds closer to what I'm hearing.)
     
  16. LCM

    LCM Active Member

    Location:
    Man
    O yes, I agree, I did not mean close to the actual LP but sounding as vinyl is mythified. My LP is David Bowie - "Heroes" (Sterling, very thick) and sounds far better than any digital version. And I'm not happy with that for :
    though as NM/NM I will ever find, it's noisy which is a pity since Moss Garden is my fav track
    nowadays digital has an edge in my system/room ; maybe only thanks to live Room Correction but digital is supposed to be at least equal (and often betters) to vinyl here (I have not spent on hardware in a while but always tried to benchmark each other source : actual salvaged studio turntable modernized by all XLR transmission line from the cartridge, optimum tracking force found in the low/lighter range etc : I built a vinyl experience at the opposite of the Denon 103 at maximum load kind of vinyl experience). As a sought for result, my oldest LP, Ellington's Masterpiece, sounds closer to Analog Production's SACD (that betters it though ) that 2 masterings of Heroes sound here
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
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  17. Solace

    Solace Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brussels, Belgium
    Voted A and F. I thought C was awful. Thanks for all the work setting this up Tsomi.
     
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  18. Pavol Stromcek

    Pavol Stromcek Senior Member

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    I went with E - it sounds the best, with the most balanced and easy-on-the-ears sound. This seems to be how I'm accustomed to this album sounding.

    D sounds better than any of ones below, but seems a tad warmer or darker compared to how I'm used to hearing it, and occasionally sort of pinched in the higher frequencies. It's pretty smooth and even overall, though, so I voted for it too.

    B is too bright and is lacking in bottom.

    A is too bright and smiley-faced. On some tracks it even seems a tad aggressive.

    C is excessively bass-heavy and dulled (on some tracks comically so, but less so on "Scream Like a Baby"). Its effect is too "blanket over the speakers," especially for an album whose sound I've always thought of as very crisp and clear. Whomever mastered this should be forever barred from the industry and required to wear an amulet of shame.

    F is awful - bright (at times shrill, piercing), thin, smiley-faced EQ, and unnatural sounding. Whomever mastered this should be forever barred from the industry and required to wear an amulet of shame.
     
  19. karmaman

    karmaman Forum Resident

    E for me too.
     
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  20. Daniel Plainview

    Daniel Plainview God's Lonely Man

    I'm struggling with this one. None of them sound that great to me.
     
  21. Pavol Stromcek

    Pavol Stromcek Senior Member

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    I'm not surprised that E is currently leading, but I am surprised that F is, at the time of writing this, right behind it.
     
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  22. karmaman

    karmaman Forum Resident

    i think unintentionally it's a little louder than the rest and in short bursts its smiley face EQ is cutting through the murky mix (this is a Visconti kitchen sink production after all)...
     
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  23. HE1NZ

    HE1NZ Forum Resident

    Location:
    Russia
    F sounds really funky and I think I'm voting for that. It's obviously "enhanced" a bit, but it doesn't seem to be missing anything and is noisy at the beginning of Fashion unlike some other samples that are scrubbed. A is denoised the most, something isn't right about it. B and C sounds terrible. D and E seems similar at first, but there's lot more noise on Fashion on E and sound is a bit more natural, I like E better. I pick both E and F. If I have to guess, E is 2017 box, F is 99 version, D is perhaps 1990 Ryko master.
     
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  24. karmaman

    karmaman Forum Resident

    1 out of 3, but your F guess is close.
     
  25. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    Very interesting--on this one, your impressions are nearly identical to mine!
     
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