Breaking Bad, did it ever almost "jump the shark"?

walt was great, a very duvall like performance. a lot of great non-verbal acting.

 

I don't understand. I was responding to a specific post that mentioned what the poster thought was the single best episode. I think it was Ozymandias. I didn't have a problem with any of the script, is that what you are saying?

 

haven't read all the posts supra and will just answer the OP's question-nope. IMHO, it is the best non-comedy series of All. Freakin'. Time. So, one season was maybe a bit weaker when compared to its own body of work, but never even close to JTS. Kinda like Mad Men, which, again my opinion, is the second best. That series got a little sideways, again when compared to its own continuity, but squared up and ended strong. Great stuff.

 

JTS-BB?
No! It ended with a
bang bang ra ta ta tat.

 

Was agreeing with the sentiment that the series finale was not as good as the show as a whole which was the point of the post you quoted

 

After that, Jesse drove off the site screaming in euphoria and WW walked into the lab to take credit for all the recent cooking he didn't do.

 

You're describing every show apart from documentaries (and sometimes even documentaries are futzed with in editing to the point of not being "real"), and "Breaking Bad" had this problem far less than many if not most shows.

I found very little in the show "over the top", and certainly there are moments of suspension of disbelief.

But *every* show has stuff like this, it just depends on what one's experiences or expertise are. A period piece like "Stranger Things" can look impressively like 1983 to some, while others see glaring mistakes like 1984 music being played or latter-day walkie talkies being used.

Same goes for "life" events found in "Breaking Bad." They may be implausible to you, but not to others. Sometimes.

Walt's brother in law being in the DEA? That's how the whole show gets started. There *is no show* without Hank being in the DEA, because that's where Walt's head really starts churning about cooking the drugs with Jesse.

I haven't reached all of the other points in my current re-viewing experience. I do recall that Walt witnessing Jesse's girlfriend dying didn't seem too implausible. It's Jesse's girlfriend, he got her hooked on drugs again, and Walt was an associate of Jessie. The *precise* timing is certainly convenient, but that he's there on that day with those people there isn't far-fetched at all.

I may be repeating myself from a previous post, the overarching main events in the course of BB do have some "suspension of disbelief" moments, just as any show does. Less so as I said, in my opinion. But the moment-to-moment character interactions on the show, which are really the main crux and core of the show, feature some of the most realistic (often painfully, awkwardly so) interactions and conversations I've ever seen on a show. Awkward fizzling marriages rife with lack of communication. Jessie not being the "Joey from Friends" dumb guy, but a realistically ditzy dumb guy who, at times, *wants* to not be that guy. Walt's wife reacting to his lies and cagey moments *not* by confronting him (usually), but by doing the same things herself. Hank's wife suffering from Kleptomania but not really actually doing much of anything about it.

I can also say, having been close to someone who suffered from lung cancer, that a lot of Walt's dealings with the cancer and with his family are *painfully* realistic. Some of the outlining stuff isn't as much (I've always taken issue with why Walt really needed the huge amount of money to not only get a diagnosis from a "better" doctor but then undertake treatment with that doctor, when what was prescribed was pretty standard, non-experimental, cancer treatments that his solid school district medical insurance surely would have covered). But the people *around* Walt doing the "your cancer affects us as much as it does you" thing is something that, for many families, is very realistic and often problematic. Walt being more serene (at times) about his condition than his family; also realistic. Being a pragmatist like Walt and planning your life around only having X number of months and then kind of being annoyed when you get more time: realistic.

I could even nitpick *that* element of the show, pointing out things like the fact that Walt's doctor surely would have told him about the possibility of severe burning of his chest/esophagus *prior* to undergoing radiation treatment rather than Walt simply coughing up blood and assuming he has days or weeks to live, but at the end of the day it still has some gut-wrenching realism that frankly is far more relatable than a lot the stuff one might see on, say, "The Sopranos." Now, "relatable" and "realistic" aren't the only measures of a show, but when BB is being criticized for a lack of realism, it's worth pointing this stuff out.

 

All the show's defining moments could be called over the top, and therefore so could the show itself overall. Each relationship erodes into violence and death, or the threat thereof, to the point where WW is attacking his family with a knife and kidnaps his baby girl. But the show can't even be forthright about this because we have to pretend he's orchestrated it to try to make Sky seem less of an accomplice to the cops.

I'd argue that the painful/awkward moments are the result of an inability to write realistic dialog and characters. The show lurched from awkward scene/conversation to awkward scene/conversation; there was no normalcy or dependable baseline where the characters could interact in a way that rang true. I don't think Friends is a worthy point of reference. It's a sitcom on a network channel. Sopranos or possibly Mad Men are the more relevant points of reference as well written shows where the protagonist was trying to lead a normal life while hiding something criminal. Jesse and Walt often broke character and there was no reason for it beyond sloppy writing. They essentially switched roles in some episodes of the later seasons. Walt became thoughtless and irresponsible while Jesse stepped up in the trip to deal with the cartel. Jesse wanted out while Walt became irrationally invested, despite being presented as a totally rational person throughout the first couple seasons. The kleptomania was entertaining, but felt like a cheap trick, along with Sky's smoking-while-pregnant, to plunge all characters into grey moral areas.

Yes, I agree that this was handled artfully as a high water mark in the first season. I recently had a cancer/chemo nightmare in the family but it had a much different dynamic, not relevant to this discussion. To me, though, it's instructive to compare it to the way that elderly people were handled in Sopranos, e.g., Livia and Uncle Junior, who skirted with dementia in ways that were so subtle you didn't quite know where their real motives ended and their dementia and neuroses began. The character development in Sopranos was more adroit so as to create a rock-solid framework where they could interact and bend their motives and relationships without ever breaking character. BB never had that solid framework and the characters seemed more capricious. I found the way Walt was refusing treatment unrealistic and the way he then did a 180 and accepted treatment (with the different specialist) to also be unrealistic and two wrongs didn't make this right.

Then again, you have geniuses like Steve Jobs inexplicably choosing homeopathic treatment over conventional therapy and dying as a result. That doesn't seem realistic, either. But it was. Another side-note: did you see that Walt's surgeon was the same actor as Uncle Junior's surgeon, Dr. Kennedy?

True, it's not make or break, and obviously it was hugely entertaining and put asses in the seats. But I'm just saying that, for me, the lack of a realistic framework was jarring and the over-the-top choices yanked me out of the moments of enjoyment that made the show worth watching.

 

I don't think we're talking about the same "moments" when we're talking about what we find painful/awkward. I guess you're talking about stuff you don't like. Poor writing = awkward, I guess?

I'm talking about how moments are painful and awkward *because* they're realistic (and I suppose vice versa to some degree), and how that type of awkward is brilliant show execution. I guess it's just a matter of coming at it with different life experiences, among other things. Jesse asking Skyler where she got the pasta salad, or Walt holding a pregnant pause while holding up a copper wire hoping Jesse will correctly ID that yes, the key to making their car battery is the copper, only to find Jesse *still* biffs the answer, stuff like that is so much *more* realistic (and also entertaining/funny/compelling/tragic as the scene dictates), and I think *that's* one of the keys to the show's brilliance.

The scene where Walt gets his scan results and the rest of the family joyously celebrates while he is much more subdued, *that* sort of stuff is 100% realistic and conveys with brilliant brevity that facet of the experience of dealing with that sort of illness. Walt's waxing and waning optimism and pessimism never really lines up with Skyler's or anybody else's. Very, very realistic. Tragically so.

If you find *these specific* instances (of which I've cited several) to be wholly *unrealistic*, then I guess yeah, you're going to find the whole show problematic, and that would also explain why you're not into the show (though, as others have pointed out, it doesn't explain so much why someone with that opinion would watch the entire run of the show with so many "unrealistic", awful writing moments occurring in the *first* and *second* season of the show).

 

I will say this about the show, which is less a criticism than a picture perfect wishlist: I found the earlier seasons of Walt dealing with illness more compelling than his "say my name" Heisenberg thing that happens later on. "Say my name" is *not* one of my favorite moments of the series, and I never subscribed to the idea of liking the show because Walter became a "badass", etc.

I don't find that movement (the oft-quoted Gilligan line about Walter going "from Mr. Chips to Scarface") a bad thing for the show; it was still quite entertaining and remained *to the end* a good exercise in the uneasy area of gauging morals/ethics/empathy, etc. But my favorite, relatable moments of the show did tend to occur earlier in the show's run. (Although, I'm open to reassessing that; I'm now in the midst of Season 2 in my first re-viewing in over two years, so we'll see if that changes at all).

 

one particular point: as far as the believability of Walt witnessing Jane's death, if I remember correctly Jane was laying on her side and it was Walt shaking Jesse to try to wake him that caused her to be moved onto her back, which resulted in her beginning to vomit. He didn't just witness it, he caused it.

 

I totally agree with you that the earlier seasons where Walt has a more cohesive conscience are more compelling. The "say my name" schtick is exactly the type of breaking character (more than breaking bad) that I'm criticizing here. I just don't buy it and it seems silly rather than menacing. Cranston is a gifted actor, but he couldn't pull this off because of the writing. I don't think anyone could have pulled it off. In contrast, Gandolfini transitions from doting father/husband to seriously murderous mafia figure in a manner far more convincing and menacing.

Actually he asked her whether she put lemon in it. The humor derived from his wrong assumption that she made the salad. She then takes great pride in pointing out that she got it at Albertson's and has no clue what went into it. Whereupon Jesse then compliments her ability to shop at Albertson's. I see where you're going, though, and agree this was a rare moment of levity and humor where the scene reveled in the mundane. The writing worked. Jesse knew Sky didn't want him there, and was like a deer in the headlights when confronted with the same negative energy that Walt had been dealing with for a long time. Good example.

This is another pretty good example, because it advanced Walt's character as an uptight school marm even when trapped in a mobile meth lab. But you may have misremembered that scene, too. I'm not 100%, but I know Walt needed zinc, not copper, to make the battery. And since it was Jesse who had just inspired Walt to think of that idea (as well as the magnet to wipe clean Gus' laptop in police evidence) it seemed particularly obnoxious to give him a hard time about it. In fact, the writers couldn't decide which side of average intelligence to put Jesse. Walt certainly cast him as a ***** in all the dialog except when Walt was trying to manipulate Jesse. But Jesse had more than a few extended sequences of brilliance and proved himself to be an idea man and not a yes man. Part of the problem is he talked in such halting, over-acted meter and punctuated everything with "b*tch" or "assh*le" which made him seem juvenile. So again, the writing here was a cop-out I felt.

Subdued I understand, but to my recollection that moment was instantly followed up when Walt went into the bathroom and punched the dispenser hard enough to draw blood. This thoroughly confused me. I had no clue whether he was happy, sad, relieved, angry--certainly it was not subdued. The writers needed to give more context and it just stood in jarring contrast to the scene you cited. That's what I mean about taking the believable elements and in the next moment doing some kind of shark-jumping exercise.

I would say those are good examples that can support your position but I can also use them to support my position. What happened to Walt's commitment to keep Jesse and all other elements of his meth business away from the family? It doesn't seem plausible that he'd reverse himself, no mat.

 

Pride is the original sin.

 

You could make a very good case that this is the overarching theme of the whole show.

 

Yes, that's exactly right. Jesse and Jane had purposefully slept on their sides -- Jane reminds him to do so. Then Walt inadvertently knocks Jane on her back when he's shaking Jesse.

 

While that can be interpreted as a mistake, and freezing the way he did can be interpreted as a momentary lapse to act to save Jane, there is no doubt that Walt took sociopathic delight in telling Jesse about it just before Jack et al carted Jesse off to be tortured and live as their slave cook. If Walt wanted to say something to make it seem Walt and Jack were parting ways on good terms, there were a number of gestures he could have made without ripping out Jesse's heart like that. One of the more incoherent things about Walt's character is why he had so much disdain for Jesse one minute, while considering Jesse akin to family the next minute. He would waver between wanting him whacked and wanting him as an equal partner. Did he see him as expendable or not? It would have been nice if the writers decided this more firmly and built coherent sub plots around it.

 

I've never been in the service, much less a war, but I suspect this could very well happen.

 

If just his face had been mangled, it would have been somewhat believable. But, while the shot/CGI only has a certain amount of detail, I always got the impression his skull was hollowed out to some degree on his right side, as if part of his brain were missing/cooked/splattered. *That's* where it seemed more implausible to me.

 

Maybe so, but the real question is what to show the audience. Certainly if you're Mel Gibson you have a different idea about this than Spielberg, who would have different idea about it than Hitchcock. The first question the writers should have asked themselves is "what is the shock value here?" They did a good job setting up Salamanco with the bomb, going from a look of defeat when Gus visited him to the evil eye as he forcefully hammered that bell to detonate the explosive. The explosion was all they needed to show, especially with the next scenes providing news reports of Gus' death. Too often Breaking Bad would screw up the impact of scenes by not know when enough was enough. The explosion was like the final note of a well written symphony. There was zero reason to show Gus dying so graphically.

 

Walt definitely does at times have a weird manic attitude towards Jesse, vacillating between caring and very much *not* caring. But again, I'd say while this is unsettling and certainly reflects poorly on the Walt character, it's not particularly unbelievable. Many relationships, both friendships and romantic relationships, can be rife with this unsettling love/hate thing; of caring about someone and then wishing the most purposeful ill upon them imaginable, and then back again.

 

Really, I am not a fan of it either.

 

Shark bait ?

 

That's a appropriate analogy.

 

That was hilarious.

 

Yeah, I dug a lot of that, too. Vince Gilligan said a long time ago that Breaking Bad was a show about bad decisions leading to consequences, and I think you can spot many occasions where all the peripheral characters (even Hank and Walt's wife) made very bad decisions that led to awful situations. Hank's wife was pretty much innocent, as was Walter Jr., but everybody else got dragged down by situations over time. The relationships between people in that show were terrific: I enjoyed the stuff with Walt's rival, Gale, who was very competent, had a sense of humor, and actually seemed like a nice guy -- assuming you can enjoy the drug-making thing -- and then they had to kill him. That was a great story arc over time.

Those are the things I enjoyed most in Breaking Bad, just how you can see you're in the middle of a slow-motion trainwreck and you're thinking, "awww, they're not gonna go there!", and then they do.