Brian Wilson biopic: Love and Mercy

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Vidiot, Apr 17, 2013.

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  1. emkay

    emkay Senior Member

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    I think you were missing my point - I was not suggesting it involved any work, simply that it had his stamp of approval. That post was from a million years ago before most of the information we have now was out. I head read the production notes on IMDB, and I'm not even sure the roles had been cast yet. Long time ago...
    so cool yer jets....
     
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  2. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    Oh yes, definitely. All of the “corporate” Beach Boys (Brian, Mike, Al, Carl or his estate after his death) would have to sign off on such releases. But I don’t think any of the members outside of Brian would have blocked a release of “Smile” material. But it’s a difficult thing to measure; it’s not as if Capitol or some archive team were prepping and presenting a “Smile” set to the group every year for re-appraisal, and even if all members outside of Brian would not have blocked a release at any time, it doesn’t mean they were actively championing such a release happening. But it was evidently an “off the table” sort of proposition in terms of Brian, until they broached the subject for his 2004 re-creation (and that in turn was probably at least in part by the success of the “performing a full album” format they had been doing with “Pet Sounds”).

    I think Mike has always had a kind of dismissive, “whatever” attitude about “Smile”, certainly in later years. The 2004 lawsuits were mostly or fully unsuccessful, but I think Mike’s attitude at least in part at that time, based on interviews, was they while he wasn’t some big champion of “Smile” material, he did feel that the group played an important role in the creation of the album by singing on all of the sessions they sang on, and also because the group (either themselves or via their record deal) funded the creation of the album (the “creation” being a mixture of the writing and recording process, which isn’t/wasn’t always easy to separate; other than the obvious in terms of publishing and songwriting credits). While I don’t think that should result in having “rights” to the written work known as “Smile” itself or its title, it speaks to Mike being proud of (and obvious preferring) the original “Beach Boys” performance of the album. I’m sure Mike would have been much happier with putting out a “Beach Boys” version of the album (either fully archival or having the remaining group members sing on it) rather than Brian reclaiming it as a solo project.

    Of course, the idea of Mike, in 2004, joining in with all of the Beach Boys to sing new vocal tracks for “Smile” is pretty far-fetched. If nothing else, he was still kind of on the outs with Al Jardine at that stage as well. No matter, I don’t think many fans would have wanted the 2004 Beach Boys adding vocals to 1966/67 backing tracks. It would have been nice to hear them sing on the fully re-recorded 2004 version, but that couldn’t have happened either for many obvious reasons.
     
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  3. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    I think in Mike's case, it would more be a question of approving what the liner notes say. He's come off as such a villain in the past 50 years about SMiLE, and while he's defended himself many times, I'm glad that Van Dyke Parks did make a recent statement in the last couple of years that said that Love was hostile from the word go, hated the idea, hated the project, hated the material, and made life miserable for Brian. I recently read some statements from Carl and Al from the 1990s where they basically said, <paraphrasing> "we never disliked the music for the album. It was the lyrics that made us worried." I still think the album would've been seen as very bizarre, experimental, and non-commercial if it had come out in early 1967, and if the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper came out a few months after that, I think it would've totally overshadowed what the Beach Boys had done. At least Pepper was bizarre and commercial, which is a big difference.

    One thing that keeps coming to mind when I listen to the album is that it's clear to me that Brian was trying to be whimsical, rather than being laugh-out-loud funny or profound or entertaining. Whimsy is a hard thing to grasp and a very slippery thing to pull off, particularly in art or fiction or film.

    Sadly, I don't think they had the voices or talent to do it 40 years later. (Who could?) My impression from the liner notes is that some of the vocals were temps, just acting as placeholders until Brian had a chance to re-record them later, but that time basically never came. Given that what we heard basically a "first draft" of SMiLE, I think it's got some terrific moments, and I've listened to it at least 100 times since it came out a few years ago. (In truth, I wish Linett had made both mono and stereo versions, but I think some of the mono vocals are forever embedded in mixes and the multitracks are gone to the ravages of time.)

    I wonder if the 1966 Brian would've had the b@lls to include "You're Welcome" as the final track? o_O
     
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  4. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    I think time and information and analysis has led to some conclusions that at least some Beach Boys fans have made as far as “Smile” is concerned. One of the things that, I think, most fans agree on at this stage is that Brian probably wouldn’t have been able to finish the album back then even if everyone in the band had been effusive in their support and enthusiasm. It seems as though Mike taking issue with some of the things to do with the album was slightly like a case of someone getting stabbed after they’ve already died. Mike’s “issues” with the lyrics and the style could have been the deal breaker had everything else been on track, but extant session recordings and analysis of all the information and interviews and whatnot strongly suggest Brian had “lost the plot” independent of anyone else’s impact.

    I don’t think the 2004 Beach Boys (or even the 90’s Beach Boys) could have remade the vocals themselves satisfactorily. They actually can sing very well together still (even through the murk of autotune and multiple Fosketts, you can hear they sound great harmonizing on the 2012 studio album), if working on the right material.

    The 60’s recordings are apparently relatively murky inherently. Even some of the raw studio session tapes sound murky. “Do You Like Worms” and many of the dense instrumental tracks (“Heroes and Villains”) are very murky, and this does hinder the impact of the material in my mind, even if Brian was going for that.

    I like the idea of presenting the “approximated” finished 1966/67 “album” in mono, as that’s how Brian would have done it. But the stereo mixes we have heard (on the vinyl version and the “Made in California” set) do allow those murky recordings to breathe a bit more.

    I’m not a fan of most of Linett’s remix work on the Beach Boys catalog, as far as mixing is concerned. The 1996 “Pet Sounds” stereo mix is great, he did a fantastic job on that one. But most everything from 2001 and on has WAY too much reverb/echo (digital or otherwise). The “Smile” material isn’t as bad in the echo/reverb department compared to some of his remixes of mid-60’s material. I was pleasantly surprised that “The Smile Sessions” release wasn’t a disaster in that area. But stuff like his “Summer Days” and “Today” stereo remixes are way over-processed on the reverb/echo front, and I’m someone who really likes stereo remixes of old material (a few glitches aside, I loved the Beatles “Yellow Submarine Songtrack” for instance).
     
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  5. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Bah, I think Mark's stuff is fine. I'm glad at least in many cases he provided better fade-outs at the ends of songs. Brian I think was prone to just sluffing off the fades on the assumption that by then, the Top 40 DJ would be talking over the song and moving on to the next one, so he didn't pay a lot of attention to them. Linett at least made the fades fairly smooth and even, plus also provided a couple of extra seconds of music (as with "Good Vibrations").

    Don't forget that Linett's mixes are getting approved by several layers of people, so the decisions are not 100% his to make.
     
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  6. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    For sure, the mixes are getting approval from Brother. I'll even guess that Brian likes the gobs of digital reverb. I just think it's extremely excessive in some cases. When I played the remix of " Please Let Me Wonder ", it sounded like someone hit "Opera House" on my old Sony digital receiver/amp. At a certain point, too much reverb counteracts the stereo remix's ability to give a more open sound to the mix by just making it murky.

    I think there are some old discussions on the music board about the fades on some of those old mixes. I think on some cases it was the mixing board Chuck Britz was using that resulted in the sort of abrupt volume drops on each step of the fade outs.
     
  7. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Yeah, those old stepped attenuators were a nightmare, especially if you were trying to do a slow fade. I would bet that's what they had at Goldstar. Bill Putnam at United/Western Recorders was among the first people to develop consoles that avoided that problem.
     
  8. nosticker

    nosticker Forum Guy

    Location:
    Ringwood, NJ
    We'll never know if SMILE would have been a hit or not, but I always felt like it had little chance of standing up to Pepper in that there really aren't any "Little Help From My Friends" easily-accessible tracks on the album. Closest thing might have been Heroes and Villains, but there again, who knows if it would have registered differently if released earlier than it was? It just occurred to me now that two very significant people in Brian's life--Mike Love and Dr. Landy--were both hugely positive AND hugely negative influences, but I digress.

    To be fair, Mike still DID sing those lyrics he disliked, including the infamous "cornfield" ones. And I think as soon as he saw that Brian had doubts about the project, I'm sure his hostility kicked into high gear. This is where Brian, in my opinion, failed as a producer. He seemed never to have a clear vision of the album or any sense of the end game, needed to chase every last possible production idea while the clock ran out, and could not stop the mutiny of the band members who objected. What probably should have happened was Brian taking the guys aside and saying, "Remember, I am the producer on this project. I have written the music, and Van Dyke is my lyricist. Any complaints go through me, period." That is not my impression of how Brian rolled, though he could be an effective taskmaster.

    There are clearly still some hurt feeling regarding SMILE. Seems like Van Dyke Parks should have been featured in more interviews in the Session booklet. Anyone know why not?

    And one should definitely look up Darian's version of Do You Have Any Regrets? It's great!


    Dan
     
  9. Jason Manley

    Jason Manley Senior Member

    Location:
    O-H-I-O
    This question is to maggie or anyone else that has seen the film or would know. I realize this is about as off the wall a request as you'll get but, here goes...

    I'm trying to assemble a soundtrack (cdr) of music from the film to listen to in the car on my commute to work and back. Was hoping if you might recall a good many of the songs that were used for the films soundtrack, aside from original score of course.

    If you don't recall that's fine.. was too curious not to at least ask.
     
  10. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    One of the interesting things that is difficult to know is Mike's attitude towards other Brian collaborators. It's probably not out of line to suggest he may have disliked some "Pet Sounds" or "Smile" lyrics not only due to their content, but because they weren't *his* lyrics. Using other lyricists/cowriters could be a professional affront and a blow to one's ego (no "Pet Sounds" pun intended!), not to mention cause uneasiness about what his role would be as a lyricist on future projects.

    Mike's attitude towards Brian's other collaborators has been mixed of course through the years. He has said in many interviews that he wasn't into the intricate car/hot rod lingo, so he didn't mind another person writing those lyrics. I think his mixed feelings about Asher and Parks may have been due not only to the content of their lyrics, but the fact that Brian was using those folks as lyricists for essentially entire albums/projects, to the exclusion of Mike.
     
  11. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    A brief and probably incomplete list: here goes!

    * I believe "I Get Around" was the opening music; I might be misremembering, but we definitely do see the band lip-syncing to the recorded version at the start of the film for a TV appearance. It may or may not have been the title music--it was either that or another earlier song, I don't remember perfectly. I remember that there are opening credits, but the title of the film doesn't appear until the end.

    * Dano gives solo performances of "God Only Knows" and "Surf's Up." We see the production of the Pet Sounds album and hear instrumental snippets of most of the songs on it in what I take to be re-created versions. We see, for instance, a fair bit of the recording process for "I'm Waiting for the Day" and "Pet Sounds," and also see a group vocal recreation of "You Still Believe In Me" (as well as seeing how Brian and Tony create the intro, with bobby pins on piano strings). We also hear the finished versions of several songs, notably "Wouldn't It Be Nice," "Sloop John B," and what I believe to be a remix of "Here Today" emphasizing the talking during the instrumental break. This is most of the music in the film.

    * A significant portion of the film is dedicated to the production of "Good Vibrations" -- the "hum-be-dum" session tapes play over the end credits. There is lots of re-creation of its various elements and early versions.

    * As I recall, "Till I Die" is heard briefly during a montage.

    * Cusack-Brian briefly plays "Love & Mercy" on piano for Banks-Melinda. Later, the real Brian performs the entire song live over the main titles at the end.

    * Tons of songs, mostly from the Today/Summer Days period, appear in tiny, barely-recognizable snippets in the incidental score by Atticus Ross.

    * Brian and Melinda attend a Moody Blues show on their first date and listen to "Nights in White Satin" IIRC.

    * The Sunrays perform "We Live for the Sun" (or whatever their one regional hit was called) in a re-created version.

    That's all I remember...
     
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  12. Jason Manley

    Jason Manley Senior Member

    Location:
    O-H-I-O
    Maggie, thanks so much. That's honestly more than I could have ever expected to get out of such a silly request. But that's awesome.

    THANK YOU for all your first hand info.

    Best.
     
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  13. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    No problem. My thinking is, this film deserves a fair hearing on this forum and I want to make sure that the most accurate information about it is available.
     
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  14. Jason Manley

    Jason Manley Senior Member

    Location:
    O-H-I-O
    At some point in this thread I may have mentioned that I have been jazzed about the possibility of a Brian Wilson biopic for a long, long time. Ten years ago when both "Ray" (Taylor Hackford) and "Walk the Line" (James Mangold) were both released and I thought both were very strong films. With some failings but overall, if I were a major fan of those artists, I would have been overjoyed to see their lives treated with a reverence and honesty not too often found in films of these nature.

    That's where I am with "Love & Mercy". Hoping for the same type of overall reaction, personally. I'm not as hung up on events and accuracy to the level that some at say (Smiley Smile Message Board) might be. I'm afraid they will rip this thing to shreds. Their fanaticism about the subject matter will cloud their ability to view it as MOTION PICTURE. A very complex life distilled into 2 hours. That's hard to do about anyone, but especially Brian Wilson. It sure sounds like Bill Pohlad has pulled off something of a minor miracle. And I think the key may be the script re-write by Oren Moverman who reshaped what the story would be. Choosing to juxtapose young and old Brian.

    This cannot open soon enough, for me.
     
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  15. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Well said. I would say that Love & Mercy has all of the emotional satisfaction of Ray (which I liked a lot) and Walk the Line (which I was less enthusiastic about) but without the sense of familiarity that detracts from both of those films. It's a little less "perfect" in how it's put together, but to some degree that's an effect of its resistance to cliche. And, even though I know a lot more of the Brian Wilson story than I did the Ray Charles or Johnny Cash stories, I'd say it's -- if anything -- more faithful to the most reliable history than those rather more conventionally-shaped movies were. Of course, it's also very tightly focused on two very specific periods in its subject's life, having those two periods mutually illuminate one another...so a certain sector of the audience might complain that it leaves a whole lot out. Kind of like how Eastwood's Bird focuses strictly on the latter part of its subject's career.
     
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  16. nosticker

    nosticker Forum Guy

    Location:
    Ringwood, NJ
    Makes sense, plus the idea that Mike was being locked out of a payday by not being the lyricist. And, when you see how well he did with Good Vibrations, it is hard to argue with him. Ultimately, though, ML was not capable of getting to where Asher and Parks were; as amazing as GV is, Mike would not be the guy for Surf's Up or You Still Believe In Me.

    Dan
     
  17. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Mike Love certainly couldn't write a lyric like “Over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" or "columnated ruins domino." :)

    I still can't understand why Van Dyke Parks couldn't have simply told Mike, "hey, the lyrics are just impressionistic and abstract. They're not meant to be taken literally. It's the difference between a watercolor and a photograph... don't take them literally."
     
  18. nosticker

    nosticker Forum Guy

    Location:
    Ringwood, NJ
    My take is that Mike hated VDP's lyrics for just that reason, that they were not easily digested. Mike does NOT seem like a terribly sophisticated guy, at least where rock and roll is concerned. VDP was uncomfortable defending his lyrics, and I think he had a right to be. Brian could have called a time out, gathered everyone together in a circle and said, "OK, guys, I realize that some of this is strange music, but this is where I think it's going, and it's important we get there, too. Our competition is bound to get there first and crush us. The cars and girls stuff isn't going to cut it anymore. I need you to trust me with this." Unfortunately, I don't think Brian could have been that level-headed and clear during this time. Maybe the naysayers began to shake his confidence, nevermind that no other band member had anything better to offer. As Pet Sounds wasn't a big seller, I do get the concern aired by some of the band.

    The Mike/VDP arguments should not have been allowed to happen, and that is just one aspect of how Brian failed as a producer, at least during this phase. Great things were recorded, but it also seemed like quite a bit of studio time was either wasted or cancelled due to bizarre reasons.

    One wonders what might have happened had Smile been released to an indifferent public and sold less than Pet Sounds. In theory, that could have crushed Brian even more. It's hard to believe than an LP with both "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and "God Only Knows" on it was not a killer seller, but there was nothing even close to that, pop-wise, on Smile. Vegetables was not the ticket. Heroes wasn't a huge smash, either. Perhaps all the delays were just a veiled admission that Brian knew he was in trouble but was in denial about it. I think when your producer is more concerned about being able to buy a telescope 24 hours a day than finishing your album, there's more than a minor issue there!


    Dan
     
  19. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Yeah, I agree. I've always maintained that Brian's intent was in making a whimsical album, and he was undone when he heard The Beatles' "Penny Lane," which I think had that kind of defining light pop touch with clever lyrics and a very interesting orchestral arrangement; "Strawberry Fields Forever" went into the weird, psychedelic area that was also intended to be a part of SMiLE. Since both of these songs came out in February '67, they must've been like a 1-2 punch for Brian. I think he also recognized on some level that both of the Beatles' songs were formidable hit singles.

    I think when you add up all the tensions involved -- pressure from Capitol, dissent & criticism within the group, in-fighting and jealousy between Mike Love and Parks, Brian's own inability to assemble the pieces together, plus his fear that the Beatles and others were somehow hearing pieces of SMiLE and imitating it (like "My World Fell Down"), plus Brian's emotional and drug problems -- it's no wonder the thing was shelved. They knew even in 1968 the album just wasn't commercial enough to release, and it had kind of missed a moment in time when it might have had an impact. If the album we got in 2011 could've been released, say, by late November 1966, I think it would've been a modest success, at least with "Heroes & Villains," "Surf's Up," and "Good Vibrations" as singles. I don't think SMiLE would've bombed, but my guess is this 2011 version would've done OK, maybe Top 20. No way do I see it becoming a huge hit and having an enormous influence in early 1967.

    Anybody ever read that novel that came out some years back, where a fan goes back in time to 1966 and manages to get Brian straightened out and he finishes the album on time? Interesting read. If you could bring along that 2011 mix, I bet that would've gotten the job done.
     
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  20. let him run...

    let him run... Senior Member

    Location:
    Colchester, VT USA
    The book was Glimpses by Lewis Shiner, loved it! For me, combining time travel AND rock and roll, I was in heaven!
     
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  21. Jason Manley

    Jason Manley Senior Member

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    From the Smiley Smile board:

    http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18166.msg476318.html#msg476318

     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
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  22. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

    Location:
    Michigan
    [QUOTE="Vidiot, post: 11089670, member: 13586"

    I still can't understand why Van Dyke Parks couldn't have simply told Mike, "hey, the lyrics are just impressionistic and abstract. They're not meant to be taken literally. It's the difference between a watercolor and a photograph... don't take them literally."[/QUOTE]

    Because he was a 21 year old kid! When you're that age, you don't always think with a clear head. And Van Dyke, to be fair, doesn't always seem to be the easiest guy to work with, either. Don't forget, he jumped the ship early in '67 (and has said that it was one of the biggest mistakes he's ever made).
     
  23. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Actually, Van Dyke was 23 in 1966. When you're moving in those circles, you have to be able to defend your work and be able to have a reasonable conversation about it. I'm only talking about two sentences. It's clear to me that Mike Love was blind to the idea that lyrics could be more than something concrete, real, and about actual life.

    There's been all kinds of famous lyrics and poetry over the years that have been equally vague and ephemeral. And I've also heard lyricists who were asked, "hey, what did you mean by these words?" and they answered, "hell if I know! The words came to me in a dream, so I threw them in there." I understand Mike Love's point, but I think he needed to see there was a bigger world out there than songs about surf, cars, and girls... not that there's anything wrong with those.
     
  24. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    no matter what the BB will always shine best with their early work...it's what made them a staple.
     
  25. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR! Thread Starter

    Location:
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    There's some late-60s/1970s stuff that's very good: "Darlin'," "I Can Hear Music," "Cotton Fields," "Sail On Sailor," "It's a Beautiful Day in LA," even the remake of "Come Go with Me," all terrific performances I've listened to hundreds of times. I think they were still doing interesting work in the 1970s and some of the 1980s.
     
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