Buddy Holly - From The Original Master Tapes Question

I have the UK edition of "Buddy Holly - From The Original Master Tapes". I flipped the phase on one channel and then combined the left & right channels together - lo and behold the mono tracks produce an irregular pulsing phasey sound, rather than 'cancelling' to a constant low level. So it is definitely not derived from the same master as the original Japanese pressing.

My question is - if the LP masters were used (as is generally put forward as the reason for this problem), why would it produce this effect? The relative phase of the two channels seems to be changing randomly - surely a good LP master would exhibit no such problems.

Generally, people say that this version is pretty much as good as the original Japanese pressing - surely the phase problems render it second best by a long way?......

 

This seems to be a big deal to some people. There is an issue, but If you don't flip the phase it isn't a problem, it sounds fine.

 

Funny you should mention Japan. I have seen a Buddy Holly CD with the same cover as FTOMT called “the Best Of’. It has the same track listing as your original disc and has been remastered using the vaunted K2 process. They also have the Mammas and the Papas and Bill Haley; again, same track listing and remastered via K2. I would have picked them up to see if they were the same or what, but my wife is starting to notice when I have more than one copy of an album.

 

Evan! You must be the only American I know of in Tokyo!

I have an on again, off again problem getting access to Japanese-only releases and there you are outside Tokyo. Do you know how lucky you are?

I have been trying to get music by Reiko Kato (or Katou) for 4 years now,
but ther only websites that sell her cd's are in Japanese!

then there are the Pete Ham cd with the bonus tracks, Japan only.

AND the Japan only Stranglers B-Sides compilations (vinyl, early 80's issues).

Send me a message if you care to assist with such inanity. THANKS.

 

Steve,

When I say Japanese pressing I mean the original US version (made in Japan, right?).

What I'm confused about is that, apparently, the original US verision does not exhibit this phase problem - ie the original master you prepared for the CD release is fine. Whereas, later US pressings, have the phase problem.

If your original master had no phase problems - where did they get introduced?

Presumably your LP master would have no problems either so that can't be the explanation (as has been given elswhere in the forum)........

I'm wondering if you (as you have said before) did use just one channel for your mastering but that others have gone back to the 2-channel mono masters for subsequent releases....

Anyone any ideas?


By the way, the UK edition is on MCA - MCLD 19186 and is totally legit (unlike the Lost & Found clone ).

 

And my wife thinks I'm OBSESSED with finding the perfect pressing of an album. I am beginning to think that finding the “good” Buddy Holly disc is a psychosis for some people. I have both and there is not that much difference. They both sound good. Not quite life altering, but definitely a must own (either one). I guess its like Steve said in the liner notes for “for the First Time Anywhere”, “after all of these years, the music and memory of Buddy Holly live on”. It just seems to make some people crazier than others

 

Does anyone have the original Pressing of this CD?

 

Michael,

I have both the Japanese pressing and the LP master pressing done in the US. If you need a CDR, I can help you. Just e-mail me.

 

I'm not sure what you're saying here! Are you saying that the process of playing the master on a stereo analogue tape machine introduces phase problems or that transferring it to the 1610 in stereo mode causes them - I don't see why the phase of the two channels should be altered independently from each other in either case . Am I missing something ?!

Normally if I flip the phase on one channel of a stereo recording by 180 degs and combine it with the other channel I get cancellation of the 'centre' info to a large extent - without any 'pumping' or flanging or whatever you like to call it .

By all accounts (lukpac - help me out here!) there is no phase pumping on the original Japan pressed CD - ie not 1/2 the effect but, rather, none at all.......

NB:
I'm not obsessing about this because it bothers me from a listening point of view but rather that I don't quite understand the root of the phase incoherence and am just plain curious .

 

Actually, the original Japanese CD has NO such problems. While there are some stereo artifacts (little ticks and pops here and there) summing the channels to mono produces no real problems.

On the other hand, later pressings (including the current Canadian pressing) have major phase problems when the two channels are combined. The highs go totally wacko. Not fun.

Of course, one solution would be to make a dub of the CD using only 1 channel...

 

Am I correct in assuming another solution to the problem would be simply not summing the channels to mono (since I've never thought of doing such a thing except for testing my system)?

 

As I've been telling you, other than transferring in stereo, YES!

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lukpac


Of course, one solution would be to make a dub of the CD using only 1 channel...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, one or both of the channels are suffering from a fluctuating phase problem so would that really help?.....

I didn't simply sum the channels - although this would highlight the same phase incoherence. What I did was invert the phase of one channel and then sum them together. This is basically what a 'karaoke' button would do on one of those 'karaoke' machines. The result is the cancellation of anything that is the same in both channels. In many cases this means the vocals drop out (and often the bass) leaving a revealing look at the backing track. You should try this on 'The Long And Winding Road'. It leaves just the Phil Spector orchestral arrangement! I must be the only person who actually likes his work on 'Let It Be'....

Anyway, the point is I don't make a habit of doing this to music - it's just that I had heard that the way to tell whether you had the Buddy Holly made from the original CD master was to check the phase and the easiest way for me to do that was to use a little 'karaoke' circuit that I had lying around .

 

The problem is the phase relation *between* the two channels. The two channels are fine on their own. It's just when you put them together that you have problems...

 

If the phase difference between the two channels were constant I would be happy that either one represented the original mono master well. However, the two channels have a phase difference between them which seems to be varying - ie the 'pumping' is not regular but, rather, seems totally random .

I know this seems very picky , but I would rather have the original Japanese pressing - surely there would be some audible improvement when listening to this on a stereo playback system? Afterall, when listening you are immersed in the sound field which is made up of waves from each speaker interacting in the viscinity of your ears.

Why is it accepted that this phase problem is irrelevant on stereo playback - is it just that in the region of 2KHz, say, the wavefronts are so close together that the phase incoherence is negligible when compared to the position of one's ears within the sound field? That is, the distance from the left speaker to your left ear is going to be slighly different to the distance between right speaker and right ear (ignoring the fact that the left ear also hears the right speaker and vice versa). The path difference will significantly change the phase relation between the left & right channels by the time they reach your ears - is this why this problem is irrelevant?


I LOVE this forum - where else can you talk about such mundane issues as 'phase incoherence' .

 

What they said! Boy, can you guys get technical or what. I bought Buddy Holly-FTOMT back in the '80s but didn't know until recently that Steve was involved with it. Hey, it pays to read those credits sometimes. Think I'll go give it a spin!

 

Malc S,

So, have you been able to actually hear a problem when you play this second version of the Holly CD? I have it, and I've got to tell you, sitting between the speakers it sounds fine to me. The little quirks are really not audible, at least to my ears.

On the other hand, I have about 20 Verve mono Jazz reissue CD's that they sent us, and each and every one has the channels COMBINED (during mastering) and they are totally out of phase and terrible. So bad, that you can hear swishing each time the reel turns once. These have to be the worst mastering jobs in the history of compact discs.

 

Angel,

Does Verve still do this with all their mono CD's, like the VME's?

Someone should still Phil Schaap or somebody to stop doing this (especially Phil; he's the one with the big reputation).

I wonder if they'd listen over at the Verve Discussion Board?

 

A good thing I'm making up for what my generation is missing out on, enjoying analog.